Why are so few juniors playing badminton in Scotland [Archive]

KevinStangoe

24th October 2004, 15:55

Having just looked at the results of the U/15 and U/19 Scottish Nationals, what is disappointing is the number of entrants. If this decline continues I would hate to think what state Scottish Badminton will be in in 10 years time. In the heyday of Scottish Badminton, late seventies to late eighties? all tournaments junior and senior had large number of entrants. Junior tournaments used to be huge, who can forget the first couple of Shottestown Miners welfare tournaments run by Robbie Robertson in Penicuik. The U/12 and U/14 tournaments had hundreds of kids, mind you how many of them are still playing now.
The East of Scotland junior open used to require all three halls at Meadowbank and the youngest age group then was U/16. It also attracted a huge contingent of English juniors, even today I speak to guys who played in this event and it was the highlight of their year.
I know we are in the Playstation age, there is not the involvement of the teachers since the teachers strikes in the eighties but surely if scottish Badminton is to produce decent senior players then there will have to be more junior players. National events where there are 8,9,10,11 entries will not produce players capable of progressing to the senior levels on the world stage. Good players need competition and if they are playing the same players wekk in week out then they are not going to improve no matter how much training or money that is thrown at them.
Sorry Dan if this ever gets back to you, but this is the view from the outside and from down south now.

Phil McBride

24th October 2004, 16:30

Well at this time of year they are all out playing with fireworks or trying to drink themselves stupid!

There are a number of reasons for the decline, Glasgow South wise, when I started playing there was a large junior session in the Cockburn centre on Saturday mornings with all the courts full to capacity and the same or more sitting off, this was linked to a more compitent session on the Sunday afternoon again very full which cumulated in a third session for the "better" players on Friday evenings.

Another club was started down the road in Govan High school aided by community education coached by Tahir Mahmood, it again is still going after Tahir retired but internal council politics has reduced it's huge membership.

How many junior sessions are there to get the kids off the streets now?

Well the Saturday one is still going without any publicity from the body that runs the session or indeed the body in who's building it is hosted, very odd since they promote other junior sessions heavily which have failed.

The Govan High one is still going but the politics is getting in the way heavily, school holidays do not help with the on-off aproach.

Sunday session is gone and the Friday night one is replaced by age group squads which are arguably the same as the set up over 10 years ago.

there is one in Scotstoun on a Wednesday evening and I don't know if there is one in the Gorbals on Mondays before the adult club.

In my view there needs to be a structure to get the kids into badminton and then into the clubs (oh thats right there aren't many about) it's a shame that you need one for the other and both at the same time.

Bit of promotion would help, the S.B.U. started come and try sessions during the summer which were a good idea but what wasn't a good idea was setting out age group objectives and then phoning round people who ran clubs with kids older than these ideal ages and asking if they could provide kids for the sessions irrespective of age. Sheer stupidity.

I would dearly like to know what the structure is to get kids into the game but the most important thing is to keep them there!!

Any juniors who have given up the game care to comment??

redkingjoe

25th October 2004, 02:29

My son is playing very good badminton. His coach told me that my son should be ranking around the top 30th for the age group of 12 in Hong Kong. He also does well academically.

However, when I research around there's not much advantage for good Badminton Players to get into famous University like Oxford, Cambridge, Stanford, MIT, etc. all over the world. There are hardly any scholarhip from other good U for Badminton . Nevertheless, I found that many other sport players have priority during the selection process.

I thought that Badminton as a sports can't get sufficient recognition from the U. Before the kids even think of starting a sport, the parents will promote a sports that have the most recognition.

Phil McBride

25th October 2004, 07:09

I think in the UK there are about 10 universities that are regarded as the ones to go to for badminton, as far as scholarships go - forget it, it's almost impossible.

redkingjoe

25th October 2004, 08:45

I think in the UK there are about 10 universities that are regarded as the ones to go to for badminton, as far as scholarships go - forget it, it's almost impossible.

Is Oxford, Cambridge, Durham or Bradford one of them? My son studys summer school in UK and will like to go to the U in UK.

Thanks and best regards

JKL

25th October 2004, 17:52

Hi Nanospeed7000,

I am in no position to judge whether Bradford is good or not since I did not go there but it is ranked at 47 out of the 99 universities in The Times Top Universities List. You can read all about university rankings here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,716,00.html

Loughborough University (http://www.lboro.ac.uk/) is pretty much the top university to go for sports. Phil was right about scholiarships, it's virtually impossible and your son pretty much have to be top few in the country to be considered.

Generally, your son will probably be more respected if he does well academically AS WELL AS in sport, rather than getting to a good university DUE to the help of sport. I remember badminton in university was fun and top players can still develop their badminton by joining their newly adopted county squad.

I hope this helps.

Phil McBride

25th October 2004, 19:04

Scholarships are different in the UK to most places, they tend to be academic based not sports orientated.

I agree with Loughborough University being one of the best badminton wise.

redkingjoe

26th October 2004, 01:14

Dear JKL and Phil,
Thanks for your kind advice. Actually, my son went to visit Oxford and Cambridge during his summer school in UK. He has the aspiration to get into one of those "Big Names". I'll ask him to try harder in studying.

Thanks.

Hi Nanospeed7000,

I am in no position to judge whether Bradford is good or not since I did not go there but it is ranked at 47 out of the 99 universities in The Times Top Universities List. You can read all about university rankings here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,716,00.html

Loughborough University (http://www.lboro.ac.uk/) is pretty much the top university to go for sports. Phil was right about scholiarships, it's virtually impossible and your son pretty much have to be top few in the country to be considered.

Generally, your son will probably be more respected if he does well academically AS WELL AS in sport, rather than getting to a good university DUE to the help of sport. I remember badminton in university was fun and top players can still develop their badminton by joining their newly adopted county squad.

I hope this helps.

redkingjoe

28th October 2004, 04:30

Scholarships are different in the UK to most places, they tend to be academic based not sports orientated.

I agree with Loughborough University being one of the best badminton wise.

Wow, Loughborough is really good! But it seems that not many in Hong Kong know about it!!!(for getting a job after graduation)

AXC

28th November 2004, 18:15

Bath seems to be good as Peter Bush runs badminton training there

Wolf

12th April 2006, 22:59

To go back to the first point in this forum, a lot of people are taking breaks from badminton at these ages for exams etc purely because it would be near impossible to get a career in badminton. I would also like to remind you that London has more people in it than the whole of scotland put together and if you're talking the whole of England there is obviously going to be a hell of a lot more entrants. The main problem is that fact that Scottish badminton athletes are not getting a chance to promote the event to the youth. I might not be right but a friend of mine who is very close to Badminton Scotland claimed that Mr Travers refused to enter a Scottish team in the commonwealth games because "they wouldn't win"! This is not exactly a great attitude to promote to kids. But the plans for the future of badminton in Scotland are 'long-term' and unless you know the exact details of these plans then you shouldn't be criticizing Dan or anyone else involved in Scottish Badminton!!

CWB

13th April 2006, 07:59

[SIZE=1]To go back to the first point in this forum, a lot of people are taking breaks from badminton at these ages for exams etc purely because it would be near impossible to get a career in badminton. I would also like to remind you that London has more people in it than the whole of scotland put together and if you're talking the whole of England there is obviously going to be a hell of a lot more entrants. The main problem is that fact that Scottish badminton athletes are not getting a chance to promote the event to the youth. I might not be right but a friend of mine who is very close to Badminton Scotland claimed that Mr Travers refused to enter a Scottish team in the commonwealth games because "they wouldn't win"! This is not exactly a great attitude to promote to kids. But the plans for the future of badminton in Scotland are 'long-term' and unless you know the exact details of these plans then you shouldn't be criticizing Dan or anyone else involved in Scottish Badminton!!

There is no need to shout. And that is much more readable (except for the over-long paragraph).

KevinStangoe

13th April 2006, 17:44

I have known Dan for over twenty five years and i think when he took the job on he realised he would be on a hiding to nothing. His performance as National Coach is based on the results of the National team and players in international events. Credit where credit is due, 9th place in the Europeans is a step in the right direction.

Back to my original point, if there are fewer and fewer kids playing badminton then it goes with out saying that the general standard of badminton in Scotland will drop. If we look at where Scotland was in the early eighties, Dan and Billy Gilliland one of the top gents doubles pairs in the world, Billy possibly the best mixed male player. The gents doing well in the European zone of the Thomas Cup, a fourth or fifth in the Europeans, the Under 18 teams being ranked fifth or sixth. The junior tournaments were huge.

Now look where Scotland are, ninth in Europe in the seniors and in the teens i think at under 18/19. Junior tournaments like the National Championships are being won with some individuals winning just a couple of matches.

With regard to Wolf's comments, pity you hide behind a made up name, Dan and the SBU are there to be critisised when things are not going well, and praised when they do. As for long term plans, the only thing i see is a further downward trend of kids becoming involved in badminton as they become adults, but this is not just a problem in Scotland. I think this is now becoming apparent in England too.

I would love to see Scotland back up the rankings but do not forsee this happening. I think Russell Hogg has a huge task on his hands as the National Development office at the SBU. Knowing Russell as i do he will be tackling this with his usual enthusiasim and he has my best wishes for success.

Wolf

13th April 2006, 20:09

Kevin I am not hiding, it's my nickname :) I take your point and to some extent i agree. I think my problem is the fact that the Scottish badminton schemes are not publicized well enough and not much is known about them aka 'the 16' etc etc.

I will give credit for the 9th place finish, but I am still adament that the badminton system in Scotland is poor. It may not be from lack of effort but the bottom line is the plant has been potted and we're going to have to let it grow.

opinion

14th April 2006, 03:05

Kevin

What MS juniors do you fancy to be world class then?

chris wild

14th April 2006, 09:48

I am llooking forward ten years from now. Our six year olds are now beginning to do what the six year olds did/do in the worlds successful sporting nations. This is a similar sporting development programme that successful nations started twenty years ago. So, in ten years, our six year olds & their six year olds will be equally correctly trained in mind & body.

The Uk system is called Long Term Athletic Development (LTAD). There are articles on the sport4us.net website. The UK needs a strong squad. England, Ireland, Scotland & Wales need strong squads. It will take Scotland (& the others) ten years to build on solid foundations starting NOW with their six year olds.

The future can be good. Do we have the will & the coaches to look to the future. The Chinese, Australians etc started long ago. It will take ten years to catch up.

KevinStangoe

14th April 2006, 15:47

In reply to opinion, historically Scotland have not produced any world class mens singles players apart from possibly Bruce Flockhart. I can't really comment too much on the current two top singles players as i have not seen them since they were very young juniors. If they are to progress any further then they have to be training ang playing with and against the best in Europe at every opportunity. Does this mean they will have to move south or to somewhere like Germany or Denmark? Will they get the competition they need just playing and training in Scotland? I personally don't think they will progress much further being based in Scotland?

I know Brian Sutherland tried it and also possibly Alastair Casey, but nothing has come of either of them really.

I know Susan Hughes has done extremely well for herself and should continue to improve, but again to make the Olympic team and more can she do it based in Scotland?

To Opinion and Wolf, i know you use your nicknames but it might make it easier for me if i knew who you really are when i reply or comment. I don't know if you are current or ex players or if you are Scottish or not. If you need any info on me just check the SBU website on past winners pages for the Scottish National Junior tournaments U16/U18/U/21.

opinion

15th April 2006, 03:50

You knowing who I am has no bearing. I have won more tournaments than you., that's all you need to know

So you don't know anything about juniors these days then, or just the boys?

Why are you posting in this thread if you don't know much about the topic?

And if you don't think they will be world class then why is your mate Dan not doing something about it?

Agree about Susan, she's doing really well... Credit to Alan McIlvain.

KevinStangoe

15th April 2006, 08:58

Opinion, Now that i have stopped laughing about your comments about how many tournaments you have won, perhaps if you were to put your real name to your posts i might take them seriously. If for fear of retribution from the SBU then you can send it to me by personal message as i am aware that if currently playing then it can cause some problems with the beaks at the SBU. Or perhaps your tournaments won were when there were only a small number of entries and required winning just 3 games?

Living down south i am not in day to day contact with what is happening on the Scottish Badminton scene as a whole but i do keep my ear to the ground and hear certain things that are going on or not as the case maybe.

I know some of the credit for Susan's performances are down to Alan, and i know he frequents this site on occasion, so if you see this Syph, Good on you!

I did not say Dan was a "mate", i said i have known him for over 20 odd years. Yes when i was part of the badminton scene travelling to tounaments in Britain and Ireland i considered him a friend. As for him doing something about the performance of Scottish Badminton i think he is possibly doing the best he can with what he has got available. I am aware that possibly his man management skills aren't what they could be, i think one of the reasons Robert Blair defected was that he didn't get on with Dan.

Back to the main point of why i started this thread, as there are fewer and fewer kid playing competitive badminton it stands to reason that the standard will drop so until this trend is reversed then i see no huge improvement in the standing of Scottish Badminton.

Phil McBride

16th April 2006, 13:00

I know some of the credit for Susan's performances are down to Alan, and i know he frequents this site on occasion, so if you see this Syph, Good on you!

Have to agree with Opinion on that one point! Some of the credit? Possibly a bit more than that! Alan worked very hard with Susan.

Oh dear god, i've given praise to someone............................ i've gone all mushy :eek:

Have to say it could possibly be down to structure, there is n othing to keep kids in the sport rather than sitting in front of the telly or commputer or playing footy, to be good means starting early and to starrt early means exposure in school. Do any of you know primary schools who will activley promote any forms of games other than football? How do you get an entire class into a gym to play badminton and provide the equipment rather than have them in a playground running about with a ball?

GRASS ROOTS is the problem and always will be

KevinStangoe

16th April 2006, 14:14

Couldn't agree with you more Phil, Badminton is not a high profile sport so attracting kids into it will always be difficult.

Nothing wrong in giving Alan praise. What i meant by saying "some of the credit" was that Susan did a fair bit too, after all she's the one running about daft!!

Phil McBride

16th April 2006, 14:45

Still is.................

The PR machine are using her well, but well enough?

KevinStangoe

16th April 2006, 15:33

They are that but is it enough for a spot in the Olympic squad?

opinion

17th April 2006, 15:51

What's so funny?

I was not purposely being funny and still maintain that comment.

Ah, you live 'down south'. So that means you hear what goes on about 2 months after it actually happens in Scotland then?

I just found out that some of the top juniors in Scotland actually think they are really good. I'm dying to know why.

Where are they getting this false sense of confidence from, especially after not performing in ECT's?

If their attitude doesn't change then they are on to plums.

"when i was part of the badminton scene travelling to tounaments in Britain and Ireland"

What are the numbers like at these badminton bonanzas you play in? Oh sorry, 'used to' play in?

faultserver

5th August 2006, 12:30

Hi All,

Having heard so much about Badders and after finally having a look myself, I've decided to drag myself into the 21st Century and culture myself electronically!

It's great to see so many names, past and present contributing to active discussion and opinion, hopefully I can contribute in a similar fashion and whilst trying my best to keep up!

Your man on the inside.

Faultserver

KevinStangoe

6th August 2006, 12:18

Is this the one and only famed or infamous name from the past who dared critisise players and officials with their column in the old style SBU magazine of the 70's and 80's? I seem to remember appearing in that one time due to the colour of my hair following a Greek holiday with fellow players! Think it told me to concentrate on badminton not my hairstyle!!

Welcome to the site, all controversial comments welcome!!

faultserver

7th August 2006, 17:12

Hi Kevin,

I've been responsible for a magazine column or two..... the faultserver article in "Scottish Badminton" ran as far as into the early 90's, re-appearing briefly in the early 00's but as the magazine became progressively more sterile in recent years, the need for provocative writing has also become less essential.

Focus and day to day work ethic from our younger players on their game has never been to the level that our foreign counterparts display, we continue to produce skillfull players, but players who don't move beyond junior level to produce results at senior international level in defence of yourself and you ever so colourful hair! This is a generic example now far more apparent than ever before, and far more so on the Men's side.

Being a gentleman however

Ladies first.....

The ladies game in Scotland continues to turn out strong players, and one hopes these examples are not in spite of the system.

Susan Hughes with her Bronze Medal at this years Commonwealth Games, and Yuan Wemyss prior to illness last year offer us top 25 players. This again testament to the standard of play in the Ladies game.
Wemyss a "foreign import" and not a true product of the Scottish system did all her younger years of development in China. Susan Hughes maybe more a product of Alan McIlvain, but still a product of the Scottish system.

In Emma Mason and Imogen Bankier we have a young Ladies Doubles couple who have come on strides and now genuinly compete at international level, having finished top of the European Circuit rankings is testament alone to this imporvement. I am keen to see how they will fare against their British counterparts in future Olympic squad selection/qualification(s).

With Kirsten McEwan, Elinor Middlemiss, Sandra Watt and Anne Gibson in recent years we have once again had genuine articles.

On to the men......

The defence presents the case that the Men's games has developed dramatically over the last 10/20 years, even just 5 years ago European events provided nowhere near the depth that they do now.
The increased physicallity, work rate and professionalism of the men across the board has also rocketted.

Q & A...

How do our men's results fare current day?

How does our men's training fare in regards to their current foreign counterparts, and domestic counterparts of yester year?

Are our male players of current day in better physical shape than their counterparts of yester year?

How would our top national players of current day fare against their counterparts of yester year, even against our county level players of yester year?

Is it just a matter of time untill our Ladies game goes the same way?

Regards
FaultServer.

KevinStangoe

7th August 2006, 17:44

Hello again FaultServer

I must admit yours and Christine's gossip columns were always the main talking points.

Re one of your questions, i did start a thread re comparing todays players with the ones of the past but it didn't go very far. None of todays gents doubles pairs in Scotland could tie the shoelaces of Billy and Dan at their best, or even a pairing from Alex, Iain or David ( Soup to the Badders regulars). I agree they are now much fitter and faster but they do not seem to have the skill or technical ability.

Believe it or not i am still playing and have turned out for the Norfolk Vets over 40's county side on occasion and play regularly in the Norwich 1st division gents leagues. The standard of juniors is very good but put them on a doubles court with adults and they are lost, in fact even the basics of serving seems to come hard to them. The more they play with adults the better they do become.

Looking at Scottish Badminton from a distance, there does not seem to be much competition as there are fewer and fewer players playing the game and it stands to reason that standards will continue to drop. Over recent years Bruce did well but not so outwith Scotland. Our only real success is Robert Blair who had to move south to further his career and look where it has got him. This maybe the only way for others and the future.

P.S Will the name of FaultServer ever be revealed???????????????

redkingjoe

8th August 2006, 03:31

Markymark

9th August 2006, 17:05

It's interesting that junior badminton seems to be losing a lot of interest, but that senior county badminton in Scotland is enjoying a bit of a resurgence with Glasgow & NS now in Premier A taking on the big boys in England, and Lanarkshire now in Premier B.

I exclude Lothian from this resurgence as they manage to make a mess of what could be a semi-decent squad.

I know county badminton is not exactly world-class, but you'd be surprised how many of our Olympic squad actually play in the Premier weekends and it can provide great experience for our talented junior players.

RacquetChat

28th September 2006, 18:11

...but I really don't know anything about the state of junior badminton in Scotland (I'm across the pond in Vancouver, Canada).

However, I met a really nice boy (A. Hastings) in July at a tournament in Vancouver. He played against my son (and beat my son in 3, argh, :) ). But what struck me was his sportsmanship. Kudos to his coaches and parents. He was a great ambassador for Scottish badminton.

RacquetChat

faultserver

29th September 2006, 14:00

Has anyone heard of him, i'm getting a bit old these days!

CWB

29th September 2006, 14:08

Currently ranked 2nd in Scottish U13 boys.

faultserver

29th September 2006, 14:21

Good principles to hear for someone so young, hopefully this sort of attitude can work its way up the ladder

KevinStangoe

29th September 2006, 20:36

As i started this thread about 2 years ago thought i would acknowledge the 12% increase in the total entries for the U15 and U19 Scottish National Juniors. A step in the right direction so hopefully there will be more competition, with the eventual winners having a few hard matches and not just the final.

Living in Norwich now i do not get to see any of the juniors, but even down here i have heard good things about Paul Van Rietvelde, and that isn't just from people north of the border. Hopefully he will fulfil his early promise. It will be interesting to see if he will have to follow the same route as the last good player who hailed from Longniddry!!

faultserver

30th September 2006, 18:09

In reference to your last post Kevin, what is your opinion on this article?

http://www.badmintonscotland.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=448&Itemid=116

“Our coaches recognised his talent at a very early stage and it’s wonderful that a Scot has got on the podium at the World Championships."

KevinStangoe

30th September 2006, 20:50

Your heading says it all. Total propaganda.

I have known Robert since he was 15/16, i played doubles with him in club matches, and as you probably remember, Gary (my brother who is also living down here in Norwich) was the coach of the U18/19 squad, prior to his move down here that Rob was the mainstay of. That team played in the 1999 European Juniors in Glasgow. I have since his defection met and talked to Robert about it and know he worked very hard at his game to be selected on merit for the England team. This was also confirmed by Steve Butler who was at that time one of the High Performance coaches with the England team. He said that in fact Rob had to work a little bit harder just to prove himself good enough for the England team as compared to his peers.

Would Rob have improved to this level had he remained part of the Scottish set up? My own personal thoughts are that he might have given the game up as i believe he did not get on with the coaching regime at that time which prompted his decision to try for the England set up. After all he was at Loughborough Uni and was playing with and training with them at the time.

I am a very patriotic Scot and it does seem strange that one of us would cross the wall and play for the Auld Enemy, but i think Rob took a very couragous decision and it was a purely badminton one. I think he has been vindicated by all the medals etc that he has won since his change of country. He would not have had access to the high standard of training or partners had he remained north of the border.

Back in the 80's i believe Billy G was asked if he would like to play for England as he had been resident there in Redbridge for some years. If you remember he formed some good mixed partnerships with Karen Puttick and Nora Perry. Then a decision was made by the BAof E that he couldn't continue playing with them. I would be interested if anyone could confirm that this decision had anything to do with his decision to remain playing for Scotland?