Tricky Umpiring Question

[ColinS]

Didn't there use to be an "ask the umpire" section on this site? Regardless of this, the tricky question is this:
In Doubles, it the shuttle hits the net post and then bounces within the doubles court on the opponenet's side, it is "in" and you win the point. However, in Singles, the set post is actually outside of the playing area of the singles court (as the net post SHOULD be on the doubles side line). So, if it hits the post, is it immediately a fault as if it had hit an extenal object or is it still in play if it bounces over and proceeds to land within the singles playing area?

[CWB]

It is definitely not a fault, and the laws specify that the post should be on the doubles line irrespective of whether singles or doubles is being played. The net and posts are not equipment outsdie the bounds of the court.

[ColinS]

Could I ask that people who reply state whether they are speaking from an "interpretation of the rules as I see them" point of view or whether this is coming from an official umpires point of view and whether National, EBU or IBF grade. Otherwise I will only be able to take a "statistical" vote!

Many thanks

[Markymark]

I can't see how that would happen.

But it wouldn't be a fault as long as the shuttle passes over the net.

[ColinS]

The scenario is this. I am playing singles. My opponent hits it and it is driven down the side tramlines. I am not sure if it is going to land in or out so I hit it but I mis-hit. So it starts to go further out, hits the top of the post (which is, as I said, outside of the singles playing area) and bounces back inwards to land inside the singles court on my opponent's side. Have I won the point or was it a fault when it hit the post? I have had an umpire say that it is out but that's what started the whole discussion off! Still happy to take more opinions but please let me know how "official" your opinion is!

Many thanks.

[Markymark]

I am an umpire - but I still can's see how the shuttle would bounce that far in. If it strikes the post, it is near-on impossible that it would land within the singles court.

I can't see how it would be a fault if it did but would gladly be overruled on that from a more senior umpire.

[CWB]

Let’s analyse this properly:

Law 1 defines the court and court equipment, including law 1.5 which says “The posts shall be placed on the doubles side lines as in Diagram A irrespective of whether singles or doubles is being played.”

Law 13.2 says “ It is a fault if in play, the shuttle:
13.2.1 lands outside the boundaries of the court (ie not on or within the boundary lines);
13.2.2 passes through or under the net;
13.2.3 fails to pass the net;
13.2.4 touches the ceiling or side walls;
13.2.5 touches the person or dress of a player; or
13.2.6 touches any other object or person outside the immediate surroundings of the court;”
Clearly the post is part of the court and its equipment (Law 1).

In this scenario (and let’s assume that it is possible to happen) the shuttle lands within the singles court area, so 13.2.1 does not apply. Not a fault so far.

It passes the net without going under or through it so 13.2.2 and 13.2.3 do not apply. Still not a fault.

It does not touch the ceiling, walls or a player so 13.2.4 and 13.2.5 do not apply. Still not a fault.

Since the post is defined as part of the court and its equipment 13.2.6 also does not apply because the shuttle does not touch any object outside the immediate surroundings of the court. In fact it does not leave the court.

Therefore it is not a fault.

It is not a very tricky problem really, as long as you read the laws and can follow their logic.

[Luncheon]

Not that this helps in the discussion at all.......
but at the club we play at, the school supplies multi-purpose volleyball posts. And for some crazy reason the posts are set-up as usual on the outside tramline. Thus if you hit a perfect drive down the line, it will hit the rather big post.
We have developed a "club" rule in that if it hits the post and falls into the court its IN....point over.
As you can guess it leads to some very entertaining shots......and attempts to retrieve shuttles that were aimed for the back of the court now falling vertically over the net - Great fun! Keeps the fun in club nights.....although new members who don't know the unofficial rule till it happens against them first time...aren't usually that impressed by it.

(Before anyone asks we don't play this rule for club matches)

[ColinS]

OK. Perhaps a bit of clarification on the "theoreticality" of the situation is necessary.

Whether it bounces in or out is, to some extent, immaterial. The real question is as to whether an umpire should call a fault the moment a shuttle - during a singles game - hits a net post situtated on the doubles tramline.

I put forward the argument that if is was perfectly legal to play a shuttle from outside the boudary of the doubles playing area where the shuttle travels below net height and "round" the post i.e. angling in from outside (Yes I know you'd be stupid to play this shuttle in the first place as it is clearly landing out, but when have we ever bothered about the whys and wherefores when considering theory?), then the accident of hitting the post shouldn't render the shot a fault.

At this point I was told (by an umpire of some standing) that it would be a fault because the shuttle has now touched an object "outside the immediate surrounding of the court" - the court in this case being the singles court. I then postulated it should therefore be a fault if it hit any part of the net tape in the doubles tramline, to which the reply was yes and also that it would be a judgement call on the umpire (not the line judge) as to whether this did occur within the tramline or not.

Personally, I do not interpret the rules as this being a fault but would love the answer to be nailed down.

[Markymark]

I think that umpire is wrong.

You'd be mad to call a shuttle out cos you think it hit the tape further along than the singles line.

[CWB]

I think that umpire is wrong.

You'd be mad to call a shuttle out cos you think it hit the tape further along than the singles line.

Yes, the "umpire" is wrong. The post and net outside the singles lines are part of the court and its equipment as defined by law 1. It is not a fault when the shuttle hits them.

In any event the umpire, standing as he/she does, at one end of the net is in no position to judge whether a shuttle has hit the "wrong" part of the net. The line judge would be in a better position to do this - if, indeed, it were relevant. But it is not. So the line judge does not look for it.