Fitness, and help needed...

[Daveyraveygravey]

Newbie, first post, so go easy on me!

I like running (half marathons, cross country) and also badminton, usually only once a week, but am finding they don't go together. I play badminton once a week with a bunch of guys, anything from 3 to 8 of us, taking it in turns when there are more than 4 of us.

I used to do one long run at the weekends and a shorther one in the week, but realised this wasn't a proper way to train, so have started doing shorter runs more often. I am currently just doing 20-30 minute runs over a variety of terrain and at varying speeds, 4-6 times a week. I find I cannot run for 2-3 days after badminton, and if I run the morning we play badminton, then my strength and agility on court suffers. The guys I play with think I am relying too much on my good reactions and a good "spring" in my legs to get to shots that I should accept I can't get to.

This isn't a question of injury, I am not suffering from pulled muscles or ligament damage, it is just weakness after badminton, mainly in the thighs. I do really enjoy both sports, and would loathe to give either of them up, but I can't see how else to do it. Maybe doing some leg work with weights in the gym would help, but that would mean running less. I may be doing the Great North Run in October, and should have enough time to train up for it, but they way I am at the moment, I can't see me being ready. Help please!

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

Seriously - whats wrong with a land rover for covering half marathon distances. You woud not get so tired and have energy left for badminton.

Just trying to be helpfull !!!!

[Daveyraveygravey]

Our survey said "Wap-waaa"...

[JoeWright]

Although the research hasn't been done yet (something I plan to do), your running would appear to be incompatible with Badminton because of the specificity principal.

Drop the running, Badminton is more important than anything else.

Make sure you are eating enough. A mix of carbohydrates and protein should be taken as soon as possible after each session (and carbs during if possible). Also, make sure you do your Badminton on a sprung wooden floor.

Joe

[Moose]

Hi, do you think you're just doing too much?

I was never a distance runner but I used to play a lot of rugby and badminton back in university and five aside - all side by side. After a while I just couldnt do it anymore and started picking up injuries. I wouldnt worry about ya diet, if its got you this far the body is great at assimilating and using what you are used to, change might have an adversive effect.

Have you thought of cutting down on how much you are doing? I know you mention the great north run (silly bugger) but you can over train by too much practice. Personally I recommend swimming - general front crawl, back crawl stuff and a couple of lengths "running" in the water - that would build strength without over doing it.

Personally Im doing an almost kickboxer style workout with swimming and a lot of yoga style stretching...

I hope that helps a little!

Moose

PS> I distrust weights unless you have a really good knowledge of them!

[Smurf]

Seems fairly obvious to me that you're doing too much exercise for the recovery period you allow yourself.
Running before you play badminton is a good example, by the time you get on court your quads and calves will be tired and your hamstrings tight which will take the 'spring' out of your legs, especially if you've fully warmed down before playing badminton.
And you're obviously working hard enough on a badminton court to require a 2-3 day recovery period afterwards. Which makes sense, badminton is a tough sport to play (a lot tougher than it looks!) and one that utilises just about every muscle group.

You can reduce your recovery period by making sure you warm up properly before exercise, and warm down properly after exercise. And i do mean properly, if you're not sure what this entails it would be wise to find out.
The fitter you are the less recovery period you'll need for the same amount of exrecise (you invariably work harder when fitter which kinda negates this one though), or you can simply reduce the amount of exercise you do or allow yourself a longer recovery period.

Oh, and just to point out a basic fact that many people overlook, exercise works the muscles hard but it's the during the rest and recovery period that they actually get stronger, proper rest is as vital to getting fitter as the exercise itself.

[Daveyraveygravey]

Thanks to Moose and Smurf!

Part of my problem was because I wasn't running often enough to fully understand how knackering badminton is, if you get my drift! I panicked a bit; this time last year I did 2 half marathons a fortnight apart, and after this the badminton got more regular. In a few months I went from being able to run for 2 hours 20 minutes down to an hour and then down to half an hour, and I couldn't accept it wa badminton (and how I play) that was causing the problem. I went to the doc and had blood tests just to make sure I hadn't picked up some freaky disease!

Hopefully now I understand more, I can maybe start to play a little differently, and not push the running as much.

[Moose]

Thinking about it, and I am no expert, but if have been training yourself as a distance runner, then your body would have adapted to that way of using itself. I dont know how long you have been doing the whole marathon business (again, silly bugger) but it could be a case of the muscle type debate.

We all have a natural bias towards predominance of (I think its called) long or short muscle fiber in our mucles. Long fiber (or whatever its called) is the characteur of the distance runner - the need for dexterity etc. Short muscle fiber is the foundation of ballistic movement and ability, i.e., badminton, rugby etc.

As I understand it (I used to know all this crap), no one has only one type of muscle fiber, we are born with both but that:

a) we do have a natural developmental disposition towards ones one or the other but that,
b) what we are born with can be altered through how we use our bodies and
c) ultimately every physical action needs the combination of both groups anyway...

I hope that makes sense! It sounded better in my head than it does on the page!

Regardless, I think it soulds like you just need to be a bit more planned about your exercise and be prepared to make sacrifices depending on what you find the most fulfilling.

[chris wild]

Especially as you are good with aerobic energy management & have valuable experience of using other aspects of sport science. You are using unfamiliar muscle systems so you need to improve their fitness. Post exercise aches and pains are due to (1) overuse & overloading as is your case _ I assume you know what this means. (2) Lactic acid should not be a problem with your knwledable earm down. (3) Free Radicals could also be a problem. Which you may not be adequately dealing with in 'badminton muscles'. If FR greemlims are causing their usual problems for your muscle cells then that would explain much. You will obviously understand about using sports specific rehydration (SIS Maxim Isostar) perhaps you could try post exercise recovery supplements like more vitamin C (free radicals hate it) & such like.
You don't have a fatal problem. Rather, you have a helpful springboard for using badminton as a complementary sport & big help for your overall fitness building...Enjoy good success in both
There are good sports science articles on the sport4us.net website but we might get in trouble for just stealing them for badders?
best wishes
Chris

[JoeWright]

Could we have a little time out here because I have to say there's a lot of nonsence being talked.

I haven't got time to correct/explain all but I'll pick up on a few things.

Muscle composition: there are various classification schemes. E.g. fast twitch/slow twitch or type I, IIa, IIb etc... depending on the characteristic being used (e.g twitch ramp rate, protein preponderance, etc...). However, conclusions are sometimes hard to draw as to the consequence of different fibre compositions. For example, sometimes the largest force producing fibre in a muscle is a slow twitch fibre. Probably more significant from a personal differences point of view is the ability to adapt to different types of training (e.g. endurance vs repeated high burst). This is not fully understood as it is based on complex genetic factors.

Lactic acid: please stop using this term - its a myth. Acid is fine. Lactate formation actually absorbs protons and therefore befores against acid - quite the opposite of what people think. Also, lactic acid/lactate/acid etc... do not cause DOMS (see below).

Warm down: yes there is data that shows it speeds up acid reduction. However, the difference isn't very impressive. Other adverse conditions are maintained by the warm down - including further reduction in fuel substrate. Therefore, on balance, we recommend not to do a warm down.

Free radicals: I've never heard of this one before. FR damage is generally a long term process (DNA damage). Without the research data I'm assuming this is just nonsense. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Aches and pains: injury - this can be problematic or just general wear (which wouldn't normally be classified as an injury). Also, you can get delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) typically 24 - 48hrs after the event. This is due to unaccustomed eccentric muscle activity causing damage. Its nothing to worry about (in fact, I tend to like it as it tells me I doing something right) and will go away with repeated exercise.

Back to the original complaint. The running is probably suffering because of adaptation to the Badminton and possibly lack of recovery as others have said.

Joe

[chris wild]

It might help the borrow any BTech National Diploma in Applied Science Sports Science text book (your local library) this is only A level so it's easy to read;.or there's more in the Degree level text books on lactic acid For serious data on free radicals you will need degree level text books - or the internet. As Joe speaks with confidence; he might find these matters worth exploring. Two matters for Joe to research might be free radical damage to cell membran's cholesterol which causes brittleness in the membrane, leading to inefficiency & resulting bleeding of co-enzyme Q10 etc etc. Getting under the surface here might open up an exciting world to be explored & enjoyed. Serious sports science is not for everyone. For those who get addicted it becomes the foundation upon which all sport is built.

Best wishes
Chris

[JoeWright]

I'll ask around my science circles about free radicals.

A level/degree level text books are unfortunately not a good source for sports science because they tend to be unscientific. I've even seen post grad books get things seriously wrong often.

For example, take the 'lactic acid' myth. For some time (1970s I think, I'll have to look up my sources), those in the scientific arena have known that the glycolysis formular as normally written does not reflect reality. The standard one doesn't even balance!

There is sadly very little science in sports 'science' at the moment. Its a terrible situation but on a brighter note the fundamental science is being done - its just not being communicated to those that teach the subjects at university.

Regards, Joe

[chris wild]

Please rewrite & correct our knowledge on science. The world is clearly wrong & desperatly need you

[JoeWright]

Yes it does. But seriously I'm not bringing anything new to the table - just reporting what the science community is discovering.

Joe

[opinion]

This post required a simple muscular programme, maybe focussing on interval training to make it badminton specific.

Waw, u have a sports science degree, but its completely irrelative in this post. The guy clearly has no understanding of fast and slow twitch fibres or depolarisation/repolarisation.

Final point. In Scotland anyway, i know that there are only 3 actual white-coated sports scientists.