Qualifying for Nationals?

[seamine]

Does anyone know if there is a qualifying round(s) for the nationals?

Also, what are the likely numbers for each draw?

[Luncheon]

32 draw probably and no quals.

[FutureChamp]

32 for singles 24 for doubles with no qualifying

[JonC]

Would it be a good idea to introduce qualifying at the nationals?

I know the argument can be that the circuit events aim to play this role but, as many posts on here have said, the circuit can be manipulated for a ranking and also we seem to have very frequent wildcard entries into the nationals thus negating rankings. Nothing necessarily wrong with this as the players who support the circuit deserve their place and wildcards have typically past performance to justify theirs. But, maybe with qualifying, there is more chance of the players playing who should be playing in the event proper while still giving those who support the circuit the opportunity.

And after all, spectators coming to watch would expect to see the best players.

Ignoring, of course, the logistics or other restricting factors!

[alansd]

Does anyone else think its a bit unfair on those that regularly support the tournaments to be excluded from the draw when an Ex international decideds they want to have a game?
There is a quite a big deal being made about Chris Hunt playing this year and while I am sure he is better than most in the draw if I were first reserve and didnt get a place after travelling all over the country for months and someone that plays 1 tournament a year gets in based on performances from a decade ago I think I would have a bone to pick with BE.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Chunt should be in the draw before any of the other monkeys.

He's also playing with Simon, so purely on notional rankings he would be in.

Silly question Alan.

[alansd]

Not so silly at all chosen on, I would get in the draw before archer going on rankings, if you want to have a look I think you will see he is below 100. I am not saying he doesnt get in because he is probably still one of the top 3 doubles players in the country but just because 2 old friends decide they want a last hoorah isnt a reason to keep some hard working players out the draw.
Having a qualifying draw would allow them to earn there place in the draw instead of relying on the wildcard

[seamine]

I agree that players who support the national circuit should be given more of a chance to play in the nationals than people who may be "past it" and will not offer to the future of Badminton in the country.

Does anyone know when the draw will be published?

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

I agree that players who support the national circuit should be given more of a chance to play in the nationals than people who may be "past it" and will not offer to the future of Badminton in the country.


Not so silly at all chosen on, I would get in the draw before archer going on rankings, if you want to have a look I think you will see he is below 100. I am not saying he doesnt get in because he is probably still one of the top 3 doubles players in the country but just because 2 old friends decide they want a last hoorah isnt a reason to keep some hard working players out the draw.
Having a qualifying draw would allow them to earn there place in the draw instead of relying on the wildcard

No lads.

Your both mental.

Try and post with some form of common sense.

[richard murray]

Alan if your scotish are you legible to play? as its the english nationals.

[Luncheon]

Draw will probably be up next Wednesday or probably Thursday.

I disagree Alan, I play many tournaments a season, but if I didn't get in the draw because the likes of Hunt and Archer are entering, although disappointed....I could understand that they were in!
This is where the whole common sense argument comes in.....I'm sure you'd complain if you turned up to a satellite and Constable hadn't been seeded, and you had him 1st round, then Burgess in 2nd round who hadn't been seeded either, then you had to play seeds to the final....so on the same common sense argument of seedings at sats.....you need to apply that to the entry for the Nationals.....on a one off game....Hunt and Archer could possibly beat all bar Blair and Clark, however, whoever is above them in the rankings or played lots more tournaments, would usually not be able to compete with most of the England pairs.

[Badboy]

I think qualifying would be a good idea as there are still a large amount of people that get in that really shouldnt, and plenty that dont get in that perhaps should...

But like Luncheon said, the nationals is the only time where every top player (smith apart) attends, and therefore quality and known quality should come first.

[richard murray]

I agree that players who support the national circuit should be given more of a chance to play in the nationals than people who may be "past it" and will not offer to the future of Badminton in the country.

Does anyone know when the draw will be published?

You got this one wrong, just because he has retired doent mean he is past it

[seamine]

ok, maybe not past it but do you agree that a place in the Nationals would be more worthwhile going to an up and coming youngster than someone as you put it retired?

I saw rcher play at the first Premier A weekend and I certainly don't think he would beat many of the top young players the way he was playing....:D

[Badboy]

I saw him play at the second, and he beat trueman + g white, lost to chris tonks in setting in the third, now for someone that doesn't play hardly any more and obviously does no fitness training, that's not a bad effort I would say...

[Luncheon]

All of the up and coming youngsters that you could probably name will be able to get in the draw.....and there will still be room for the "mis-firing"(your words) Archer.

I think you'll find that Hunt and Archer could still beat most of the up and coming youngsters, whilst also doing better than they would against the current England players.

It will do youngsters or anybody good to play against some English "legends" in the draw, the pressure, the experience of stepping on court with such players. Also Archer has played in the last few nationals and Hunt played the year before last, only pulling out because of dislocating his shoulder.....so its not like they've both been retired and not appeared for years.

[seamine]

not bad at all but will he be getting better and is he in need of the competition experience?

will you be entering "badboy"

[alansd]

Alan if your scotish are you legible to play? as its the english nationals.

I was just using myself as an example however since I have never played for Scotland and have livedin england for 4 years I probably could qualify.

[Badboy]

ahaha not this year, maybe next who knows.

But like Luncheon said, any of the juniors that have a chance of competing will be able to get in the draw, and always have been able too, plus people will still buy tickets to see archer, can you say the same of the juniors?

[richard murray]

I was just using myself as an example however since I have never played for Scotland and have livedin england for 4 years I probably could qualify.

Would up be giving up your national identity and agreeing to be english?

[seamine]

good point about the tickets! There might be more than 30 people there if he plays! I'm not saying he shouldn't or should play, just debating whether it was "worth" him playing

[alansd]

Chris, if you didnt get in the Nationals because Hunt and Archer, perhaps truman and foster and a whole load of other ex internationals showed up I gurantee you would hit the roof and quite rightly so.
If you rad what I posted, I said hunt is probably better than the majority of players in the draw and archer is still probably only behind Blair and Clarke but I still think any players left out for these kind of people to get in would feel very upset.
You used Constable and Burgess as an example and if I got constable first round, then Burgess second round then seeds all the way to the final I would be delighted with having beaten them in the first and second round!!
True there has to be common sense but both the players you mentioned turn out at elites and sats a couple of times a season and demolish everyone so have proven themself, as has Hurrell by winning several tournaments this season.
Hunt and archer deciding to have a laugh before retiring isnt the same, is that not what the seniors tournaments are for?

[alansd]

Would up be giving up your national identity and agreeing to be english?

You are being quite stupid here Dick, I was making a point with regards to rankings and how archer wouldnt get in based on them.

[Luncheon]

Hunt and archer deciding to have a laugh before retiring isnt the same, is that not what the seniors tournaments are for?

I very much doubt they're entering for a laugh!
I reckon Archer wouldn't be planning to do anything other than win....thats his personality!

Bearing in mind I lost in 2 to Foster and Trueman last time I played them, I couldn't really have any arguments over them entering.
I'm not saying I'd not be disappointed to not getting in, but certainly wouldn't hit the roof!

[alansd]

I dont know either of them but just on reputation I would not be surprised if they got to a semi, and could see them beating Adcock and Middleton but not Langridge and Lindley. However I just had a quick look at the ranking and there are some people in and around the low 30's high 40's who are in danger of not getting in when you give wildcards to Hurrel and Burgess, Archer and Hunt Foster and Trueman what if Nick Ponting decided to get one of his mates out of retirement for a shot at it Pete Jeffery should get in with that bunch if we are going to be giving out wildcards what about Ian Sullivan he could still give half the draw a lesson or two. Did knowles and Waterman not play a challenger a year or two ago and give half the england squad a beating. I am not saying there is not a valid reason for these guys getting in the draw but surely if they want to then they have to do more than turn up. If they were to enter a challenger or an elite and win the challenger or get to the semis of the elite then a stronger arguement could be made. If we were to go through the singles draw and do the same there are a lot of tournament players out there with wasted tickets to manchester for the first weekend in feb.

[Luncheon]

Who are your people in the 30's and 40's......surely if you went to watch you'd want to watch the best badders you could, then you would see better games with them in than other tournament players!

[richard murray]

You have to really take a step back and think what the nationals are for:
Are they not a way of giving your top player a chance to see who is best on the day?
Irespective of age, true national ranking should have some part it, but so should international ranking

[richard murray]

Who are your people in the 30's and 40's......surely if you went to watch you'd want to watch the best badders you could, then you would see better games with them in than other tournament players!
You would be better running the draw with just 16

[alansd]

International ranking is reflected in your national ranking, thats why gail and Nathan although they play 1 event a year in the UK circuit are still number 1 and why Rob blair didnt drop down the list after loosing in the semi's of the elite.
Someone like George Bevan I see is in that area where he probably wouldnt get in despite playing in and winning the cornwall, beating yourself and Burgess, the middx beating yourself again and Hurrell and Armstrong. John Hepworth is always resonable strong and wouldnt get in looking at current rankings.
Where is the line drawn when it comes to common sense. I would expect the corby's to beat most of the guys who are around 30 to 45 but would they get a wildcard?

[Admiral]

I agree with Alan.....ex-internationals shouldn't take preference over guys who have entered the tournaments all year.

The Admiral has heard that this Chris Hunt fella used to be quite good, all the same he shouldn’t be entered into the nationals before the like of George Wood and co!

[Luncheon]

Admiral......on that same ground....should you reconsider your entry?
How many tournaments have you played this season? And you said you were training for the Nats......although are you an ex-international, that doesn't mean just taking part it means getting results at international events!

[Admiral]

The Admiral was turned down Lunchmeat due to the fact that he hasn't played any tournaments this season!!

[Luncheon]

Seriously?

So you haven't got passed the quarters......thus you owe me a tenner????

[Admiral]

Due to unforeseen circumstances out of The Admirals control..!!

[Luncheon]

Excuses excuses!

Are you not a travelling reserve?

How did the Rocky style training camp go.....wasted now!!!

[Admiral]

A travelling reserve....like a diddicoy you mean? are you having a laugh - The Admiral wouldn't entertain such a thing!

[alansd]

The admiral not getting in when hunt did is ridiculous when both have as much right. Neither have played any tournaments and are hoping to get in based purely on performances of days gone by. The singles draw is probably weaker than the doubles therefore even more of an arguement for letting some of the older guys in instead of people who are there just to make up the numbers

[mrmagoo]

I believe i heard that Ian Sullivan has entered with Ian Palethorpe?

[alansd]

What does roebuck think of this??
I suppose you have this from the horses mouth?

[Luncheon]

Roebuck's been injured lately hasn't he?
Isn't that why Munt's been playing with the Pole!

That would be a useful combination, spose the only fair thing is to put Palethorpe and Sullivan vs Hunt and Archer 1st round.....nice and entertaining!

Does seem a bit harsh on you Admiral old son......especially bearing in mind some of the people who will be in the singles draw!

[Admiral]

Ian Sullivan....didn't he used to be a bit of a player - a leftie if The Admiral's memory serves him right? Isn't that Paelthorpe a robbing scally scouser?

Archer/Hunt v Sullivan / Palethorpe final?

[alansd]

No offence to sullivan but what has he done to get in the draw.
I think he played guernsey and got to the quarters....

[Luncheon]

Ex-National Champion at mixed, played Guernsey last couple of years, has more racket talent than some of the draw put together.

[alansd]

This is the same point I was making about hunt, I am not denying they have the talent and the skill to be there but do they actually deserve to get in the draw after having played 1 or 0 tournaments in the last season.
Does the guernsey count.
Everyone goes there for the beer more than the badminton!!

[Luncheon]

And it goes back to my original point.....

do you want the Nationals to be of the highest quality or include the people who have the time and inclination to travel all over the place.

If I payed for a ticket to the Nationals I'd rather see the best badminton going, than people who have merely qualified throughout the year, by playing 15 plus tournaments (thats includes me, so I'm not having a dig at anyone else)!
I would rather pay my money and watch Hunt/Sullivan/Admiral than me and other Satellite/Challenger players at the Nationals

[alansd]

How many of the guys that dont play regularly can last 2 or 3 days and also I would bet that many of them would be out on the beer regardless of playing the next day because they are only in it for fun.
I agree with your point about getting the best players out for the nationals but its a fine line. I am actually quite tempted to make the journey up now to see what happens. A bit scared though that when all the guys I have been saying souldnt get in see me they will kick my head in!!

[Luncheon]

I think a Scot at the English Nats.....will get their head kicked in anyway! So don't worry bout that!

[JonC]

So it comes back to possibly running a qualifying section where you could satisfy both requirements - wild card entries and circuit players who feel they have earned the opportunity. Might remove the arguments and as spectators, we get to see the best players in the main draw.

[nodiggity]

Honestly who cares....Mens singles is seriously going down hill... The entries are full because there are only a handful of top players and weaker players and ex players feel they have a chance against them or they might get through the first round by getting George Wood or Paul Butler....

[Luncheon]

When will you play the quals though Jon, the tournament already starts on friday morning, when us non full times, already have to use up holiday to get there and play....it'll be another days holiday, another nights accom, just to play quals.

[JonC]

I agree that the logistics may not be the easiest with qualifiers, but you could do things like only having 24 in a main draw, using Sunday morning and also with the change to the scoring, matches will be quicker anyway so maybe able to play more in the same time. Qualifying would not have to be a very big event.

Personally, I am not convinced that it the way to go, I can advnantages but accept the issues also. I think it is a very difficult thing as you will never be able to satisfy everything that people want.

But the nationals should be one of the real showcase events in the country and therefore if it requires an extra day and taking a day off work because you want to be part of it or for those who play the circuit it may mean attending one event less to save for an extra accommodation night and for those who think they have earned a wildcard, well then it is a one off expense, do you not think people would probably make the sacrifice?

[Bigdog]

Is there not an argument that playing the circuit is the qualifying for the nationals? It is my understanding that the top 28 ranked players to enter get in automatically and there are 4 wildcards. If this is correct then the wildcards should be used either on up and coming stars or top players with low rankings. I know a few players who's goal for a season is to make the top 28 in the rankings.

Surely if you are good enough to think you can do well at the nationals then it is easy enough to get in the top 28? For example - even though he has only played 6 tournaments Clarkson is still comfortably in the top 28.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Who are we talking about giving wildcards to here?

Budget juniors, budget seniors or possibly the.....

7 times National Mens Doubles Champion, 6 alone with the partner he is playing with this year!!

Crazy talk!!!!

[David69]

And by the same token there are some players in or around the top 30 that i wouldn't pay to go watch - with all due respect.

Have racket, will travel, will earn a few points - qualify for the nationals? Nooooo!

I think qualifying is the way forward.

[PeteG]

It seems that in some respects this is a continuation of the earlier thread about National Rankings. In terms of the nationals it is a special event and most players in their right minds would probably love to play given the opportunity.

Again there is the problem of who should get in and who shouldn't (the previous issue being more about seeding). Personally I do feel there should be some common sense employed, as BigD said before Clarkson could easily make the top 28 in the country. I know Mark Sellwood missed out last year because of a low ranking due to injury and again he fits easliy into the top 28 required.

Personally I would like to see qualifying, so that some of the lower ranked players who haven't been able to play as many tournaments have the opportunity to get in. If you have 4 qualifying places and 3 rounds then you could open the possibility up to 32 more players. As Luncheon said that for non full-timers it would mean an extra day off work, but then again those who are dedicated enough may be willing to do that.

Again this point is based on some sympathy for those who either have difficulty in travelling to tournaments (due to location for example) so have to be selective about what they play or those who have been injured and who's ranking has dropped to low for them to get in based on ranking alone.

In terms of how this works, you could have a men's singles draw of 24 definite players (as discussed in the rankings thread outside the top 20 the rankings tend to become less and less accurate anyway, so you should still have the majority of genuine top 20 players involved). The wildcards allow for entries such as the Archer/Hunt and Palethorpe/Sullivan, at the discretion of Badminton England and the qualifiers allowing for the issues mentioned. Doubles you could probably shorten it to 2 wildcards and 2 qualifying spots again allowing for the top 20 pairs.

The idea being to ultimately promote a more competitive main draw at the nationals.

[Admiral]

The top players based on rankings should have a bye to the quarter finals.....let the also rans play off in the early rounds, just like the good old days!!

[ians]

No offence to sullivan but what has he done to get in the draw.
I think he played guernsey and got to the quarters....

Absolutely nothing to get in. Although i think Scouse had already entered with Roebuck so i'm just filling in(i think.)

And i got to the Semi's in Guernsey last year i'll have you know......Although a greater achievement was drinking from midday till 3am the day/night before!!:D :D

[alansd]

Its nothing at all against you and like I said many times on here, I am sure yourself and Hunt are better than the guys who are travelling playing the tournaments but if I were in that position and was expecting to get in I would be gutted.
Appologies for saying you only got to the quarters.... I was battered by that point and most things run into each other!!
Good effort going from Midday to 3 AM.
Are you going to try to beat it this year???

[ians]

Theres no need to apologise, its a fair opinion.

The only time i play badders now is if there is a social element to it and that consists of the Guernsey Open and nothing else for the last two years!
I'm only playing for a giggle and a night out in Liverpool after.

Probably not endearing myself to you but there you go!

And i'm going a day earlier to Guernsey this year so will be trying hard in the beer stakes!!

[alansd]

Its Badminton England that should sort it out not the individuals, you can enter anything you want and are quite right to play the nats, I got a bit of stick for being **** and playing the elite at my club but its not my fault I got in. I imagine after training for however many years playing seriously is the last thing you want to do.

I should keep quiet now since my flight to guernsey is booked and it looks like you will be pissed by the time I arrive. I could end up with a slap!!

[Admiral]

I bet you're still a lean mean fighting machine aren't you Sully?

[ians]

Actually all jokes aside Admiral, i'm in decent shape surprisingly, although i've only played Guernsey in the last 2 years!!! I haven't had a restring in 3 years!!!! I'll be getting one of those brown areas in the middle of the racket soon!!!

Alan, did you play Guernsey last year?

[alansd]

I was there and put in a solid 2 in the afternoon till 2 in the morning on the friday after the doubles!
Might have met you. Were you at the bar with the older scottish guys Keith and Steve?

[ians]

Yeah, good guys, getting there the same time as Keith this year so we can get in some more drinking time. I'm actually considering not playing as it just gets in the way.

Admiral, you should come down mate, there's some really ropey locals, it'd be like old times in MK in the Asger"don't talk about my mother"Madsen days!!!

Alan come and see me for a beer this year

[Admiral]

I don't know what you mean Ian...the Admiral is a professional..!!

Would love to meet Asker again - have a score to settle with that ****!!

[ians]

Sorry Admiral must be someone else then *cough* MarkC*cough*

[alansd]

I think I might have had a few with you last year actually!!
Being fellow sweaties I got talking to the scottish guys quite a bit and they kept trying to get money off me for some stupid walk if I remember, No harm in saying hello for a few more though!!
Wonder if the admiral can be dragged across the water this year, since he is getting on a bit the guernsey might be more his level than the nats!!

[ians]

Actually i do remember you Alan, i just hope one of the Corby brothers is gonna be there again this year!! Their woman criteria seems to be
Age; over 35
Pulse; Optional
Sight;Optional
Bingo wings; A must

They are from Devon though...........

[alansd]

I forgot all about that, I think it was Dan, I wouldnt name and shame but he managed to ping me in the middle of the forehead off my own serve so I think its fair. Didnt someone have picture of that?? I had forgotten all about being at that house!!
Actually I am getting memories back about this now........

[ObiWan]

Actually i do remember you Alan, i just hope one of the Corby brothers is gonna be there again this year!! Their woman criteria seems to be
Age; over 35
Pulse; Optional
Sight;Optional
Bingo wings; A must

They are from Devon though...........

As Devon men it's lucky they are thinking about women at all......lessn they be sisters or cousins of course

I seem to remember(thru an alcoholic haze) 2005 Mr Sullivan winning the mens dbls in Guernsey.Luncheon will remember that one!!
Alan,take Mr S on in the bar but pray to avoid him on court.
Would be a good crack to see Admiral sticking it to the young kids in Guernsey this year.How about it O nautical one??

[Luncheon]

Managed to block 2005 final out with last years mens final, air guitar contest.....that I definitely won (especially as the rumours I've heard...is that I did a front flip off a table...awesome....I love chinese whispers!) also the sight of Sully on the pull, busting a move.....:D :D :D

It was Dan at last years Guernsey....but Matt is the chubby and old chaser, having had a night out in Southampton, however much he denies it...he dragged us in flares then went old chubby chasing!!!
Some of his pray were wrong! :eek:

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Fat chicks need love too!!!

(Lunch you're sitting on 666.... bit of an omen?)

:D

[Luncheon]

I wondered what that trident was doing stuck up me arse......I thought it was my racket!

Too true Chosen One....you'll have to join us next time out, you can give Corbe's a run for his money.....although I presume you're nearer the age of the average Flares goer! :D

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

You know Lunch.... the older I get, the younger they get.

Its all good!

[Luncheon]

Yeah, but, the older you get.....the more expensive per hour they get.....isn't that the case????

[alansd]

Managed to block 2005 final out with last years mens final, air guitar contest.....that I definitely won (especially as the rumours I've heard...is that I did a front flip off a table...awesome....I love chinese whispers!) also the sight of Sully on the pull, busting a move.....:D :D :D

It was Dan at last years Guernsey....but Matt is the chubby and old chaser, having had a night out in Southampton, however much he denies it...he dragged us in flares then went old chubby chasing!!!
Some of his pray were wrong! :eek:

I have to say, you won that air guitar contest easy, never seen a fat doubles player dressed as freddie Mercury strutting his stuff like that before!!
Now that you mention it chris, I think I remember Ian S on the pull, he did better than me so I cant say anything.
Did you not win last years mens chris? I left because the mixed was rubbish but I was sure you battered those singles players that managed to beat Sully!

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Yeah, but, the older you get.....the more expensive per hour they get.....isn't that the case????

Not when your in Cambodia!

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Seriously though...

Whos making it to Guernsey this year....?

Admiral making an appearance?

Chosen One might make an could drop in for a Badders Battle Royale!!!!

[Markostar]

Taking the topic back to the title... Found out I am 5th reserve for the nationals again this year (same as last year) I am completely gutted and 100% in agreement with a qualifying round for the nationals as you can imagine.

[alansd]

I know of one person that dropped out already so perhaps you could be in luck.
When the list of participants comes out we will be able to see who is in but I am sure Mark deserves a place in the draw above several others. I think that some of the players who are in might feel a bit embarrased when they see who they are keeping out of the draw.

[Bigdog]

How has that happened? Surely you must be ranked high enough? How many tournaments have you played in the last 12 months?

You only need to get through the 1st round of the Sheffield elite each year - that's all I've done to get in!

[Luncheon]

thats just ridiculous....there shouldn't need to be a qualifying event, there should be some common sense applied....the likes of you and Hardcastle should be put in above others, regardless of ranking!
Do you know who's above you on the reserve list????

[alansd]

I know someone who is above Mark in the reserve list and am not going to name names but he shouldnt be even though he has a higher ranking

[Luncheon]

name and shame Al....name and shame!!!!!! :D

[alansd]

Actually I am wrong. The guy in question has played less events than everyone else around him so its fair enough!

[Markymark]

But why does he have a lower ranking?? The higher ranked guys haven't done anything wrong. They play events and the computer works out the points.

I agree than Mark is a stronger player, but you would have thought that, having the same thing happen to you last year, you would make damn sure you qualified and played the right events to make sure you did.

[Luncheon]

whilst that is true....altho a touch harsh....but the truth hurts! :D

Take Hardcastle for instance, I don't know if he's in or not, but if he isn't, he hasn't been able to get into events, when he has he's done very well.....but if you can't even get into the events, how can he get his ranking high enough in time for the Nationals.
Thats where a bit of common sense and dictatorship rule should come in over the ranking system.

[Markymark]

whilst that is true....altho a touch harsh....but the truth hurts! :D

Take Hardcastle for instance, I don't know if he's in or not, but if he isn't, he hasn't been able to get into events, when he has he's done very well.....but if you can't even get into the events, how can he get his ranking high enough in time for the Nationals.
Thats where a bit of common sense and dictatorship rule should come in over the ranking system.

But what about the lowest level of tournaments? Surely those are easy enough to get into to? And if you win all of those, you'll gain enough points to be accepted into the higher grade tournaments?

Simon H would only have been accepted as a wildcard if he's in, cos his ranking is outside the top 100, having played only 2 ranking events as of December.

[Bigdog]

One of Hardcastles 2 tournaments was winning the Yorkshire challenger. This included beating the Number 7 seed for the nationals Neil White. He is coming back from injury and hasn't been accepted into some tournaments with a full draw this year. Surely he desrves a wildcard?? Although I'd prefer not to play him this year (already lost to him in the first round twice before!).

[Markymark]

One of Hardcastles 2 tournaments was winning the Yorkshire challenger. This included beating the Number 7 seed for the nationals Neil White. He is coming back from injury and hasn't been accepted into some tournaments with a full draw this year. Surely he desrves a wildcard?? Although I'd prefer not to play him this year (already lost to him in the first round twice before!).

Maybe he has got a wildcard. Sounds like he deserves it.

[Badboy]

Mark should be in the draw, at premier A he only just lost to ben beckman in 3 whose the #8 seed, so surely he must be better then one of the other 24 in the draw.

[alansd]

Bigdog missed getting seeded at the nationals by 1 ranking place, unlucky!!

[Luncheon]

Hardcastle wasn't getting accepted for Sats, and isn't there a rule denying nominated Premier A and B players playing in Orbitals.....if there is....then Simon has no chance of building up ranking points.

[Markymark]

Mark should be in the draw, at premier A he only just lost to ben beckman in 3 whose the #8 seed, so surely he must be better then one of the other 24 in the draw.

Without naming people, if players are that good, then play tournaments and pick up enough points to be ranked high enough. There's no magic in it, and there's no back handed tactics going on here. The computer adds up the points, and those at the top get accepted automatically.

If the rule about Orbitals is true, then of course that makes it a bit ridiculous, but I've never heard of that rule.

[Luncheon]

How can you play tournaments if you're entry is rejected, or coming back from injury like Sellwood, you just can't play enough tournaments in enough time, as the people above you who you can beat, are still entering and picking up points as well.

[Markymark]

How can you play tournaments if you're entry is rejected, or coming back from injury like Sellwood, you just can't play enough tournaments in enough time, as the people above you who you can beat, are still entering and picking up points as well.

You can't. Life's tough isn't it?:eek:

[alansd]

I havent heard of that rule but it would make perfect sense, the orbitals are there as a step down from sats, how can more people be tempted to play if you get Prem A and B players showing up and hammering them.

[Luncheon]

You can't. Life's tough isn't it?:eek:

There you go then.....thats why there should be wildcards and some people get in at the expense of others....thus sellwood should be in ahead of others in the draw who everybody knows he would beat.

[Markymark]

I havent heard of that rule but it would make perfect sense, the orbitals are there as a step down from sats, how can more people be tempted to play if you get Prem A and B players showing up and hammering them.

They would serve a purpose for the example of Simon H, to gain enough points to get back onto the bigger circuits. In the exact same way Andre Agassi had to play challengers before making his way back onto the main ATP tour.

[Markymark]

There you go then.....thats why there should be wildcards and some people get in at the expense of others....thus sellwood should be in ahead of others in the draw who everybody knows he would beat.

But there are wildcards, aren't there??

The person is question just didn't get one. It might seem unfair but it would be even more unfair to deny someone who is, through their own effort ranked in the top 28 (however, dubious some people think that is), to be told they can't play "because we reckon that the person ranked 10 places below you would beat you 9 times out of 10".

[NateDogg]

I would love it if mark manages to get in the draw and ends up in either white or beckmans part of the draw. Could see him beating either of those. 5th reserve making quarter finals shouldnt be possible. Thinking of pulling out myself to give him a chance.

[Badboy]

Mark does have quite a tendancy to get injured a lot but recently winning the lancs open shows his class and the fact he is in form on the run up to the tournament.

[Luncheon]

Agree, but weren't the Orbitals aimed at giving games to people who aren't good enough to play in Satellites? So they can in time build up there standard and experience to play satellites.....We're talking about the Nationals and players coming back from injury who are good enough to compete at Challenger and Elite level....how long would it take for these players to work their way back up after injury...thus missing out on top play for best part of a season, when they are good enough to compete.

[Markymark]

I can see the point, but we're not talking about anyone who is actually challenging for the title here. That is a slightly different issue. If, for example, Nick Kidd was injured for the whole year and was then fit enough for the Nationals, he should definitely be given a wild card (and I'm sure he would be).

[Luncheon]

But there are wildcards, aren't there??

The person is question just didn't get one. It might seem unfair but it would be even more unfair to deny someone who is, through their own effort ranked in the top 28 (however, dubious some people think that is), to be told they can't play "because we reckon that the person ranked 10 places below you would beat you 9 times out of 10".

Why is that wrong....surely....and I go back tomy previous statements on why Hunt and Archer should get in......we all want to see the best players at the Nationals, not necessarily those players that can play the ranking game and get in the top 28 or top 20 (myself included in that statement) If it was a straight choice for me on whether I'd rather watch me play or Sully play....Sullivan should get in everytime.....yet I'm ranked in the top 20 because I play many tournaments and do well in Satellites.
When I sit down to watch the Singles on Friday I would much rather see Sellwood play than some of the others that might have got in because of the ranking game..........and that is I don't know who's in the draw and am not aiming any abuse at anyone specific in mens singles (small caveat, so theres no chance of anyone taking things personally).

[Badboy]

You mean your not playing singles on the Friday lunchmeat :eek:

[Markymark]

Why is that wrong....surely....and I go back tomy previous statements on why Hunt and Archer should get in......we all want to see the best players at the Nationals, not necessarily those players that can play the ranking game and get in the top 28 or top 20 (myself included in that statement) If it was a straight choice for me on whether I'd rather watch me play or Sully play....Sullivan should get in everytime.....yet I'm ranked in the top 20 because I play many tournaments and do well in Satellites.
When I sit down to watch the Singles on Friday I would much rather see Sellwood play than some of the others that might have got in because of the ranking game..........and that is I don't know who's in the draw and am not aiming any abuse at anyone specific in mens singles (small caveat, so theres no chance of anyone taking things personally).

You'd be ranked high enough in any event. But it's just a difference of opinion. I can't see that there's anyone not getting in who is so crowd-pullingly brilliant, that some other player should lose his place.

[Luncheon]

I can see the point, but we're not talking about anyone who is actually challenging for the title here. That is a slightly different issue. If, for example, Nick Kidd was injured for the whole year and was then fit enough for the Nationals, he should definitely be given a wild card (and I'm sure he would be).

So you've got one rule for the top players and one rule for everyone else?
A fully fit Simon Hardcastle (hopefully he's in, who knows!) but he could challenge any of those top boys?

Who knows about Mark.....if he has a friendly draw, he plays well, others might not be peaking he could be National Champion............Sellwood for England!!! :D

[alansd]

The difference also is that agassi was playing on an international tour not domestic. Did he have to qualify for the american tournaments..... I really doubt it.
The orbitals are a great idea bewtween the bonanzas and sats. Last year I was playing bonanzas and winning or getting to final almost all the time however the level at sats for me in the singles is still just a little too high to make any decent progress where as orbital gives someone at the inbewteen a tournament they can realistically win.
If I turned up at an orbital and was faced with Sellwood, Hardcastle and other guys of that level I would be having serious words with the referee.

[Markymark]

So you've got one rule for the top players and one rule for everyone else?
A fully fit Simon Hardcastle (hopefully he's in, who knows!) but he could challenge any of those top boys?

Who knows about Mark.....if he has a friendly draw, he plays well, others might not be peaking he could be National Champion............Sellwood for England!!! :D

That's the way of the world Luncheon. Gail & Nathan work by different rules from Suzanne & David. Just the way it is.

[Luncheon]

Do you work by those same double standards?

Do you treat Elite players differently to the rest of us mediocre cock whackers?

There's no place for double standards......BE make the decisions, the rules, they decide that maybe the first 24 are ranked players and the next 8 are wildcards made up of the other ranked players inside the top 32 and the players who they know in their considered badminton opinion, based on results and ability who should get in. In the same way that last season, when BE were deciding who got into Satellites, they used previous results and knowledge/common sense to let in some players and not others, now Sats aren't the same because BE don't have the resource, County Associations don't have the knowledge, so they have to go on rankings for entry and seedings......which sometimes becomes ludicrous!

[alansd]

us mediocre cock whackers?


So you finally admit it do you!! Ialways knew it, the shaved head gave it away!!

[Markymark]

Do you work by those same double standards?

Do you treat Elite players differently to the rest of us mediocre cock whackers?

There's no place for double standards......BE make the decisions, the rules, they decide that maybe the first 24 are ranked players and the next 8 are wildcards made up of the other ranked players inside the top 32 and the players who they know in their considered badminton opinion, based on results and ability who should get in. In the same way that last season, when BE were deciding who got into Satellites, they used previous results and knowledge/common sense to let in some players and not others, now Sats aren't the same because BE don't have the resource, County Associations don't have the knowledge, so they have to go on rankings for entry and seedings......which sometimes becomes ludicrous!

There is no place for double standards, you're right. But we don't live in an ideal world and we have to be realistic about it. That's why Toby Honey get fined for not playing an Elite, and Gail & Nathan are never seen at Elites. You don't wind up the people who are going to get you Olympic medals. We're not like China who can wheel them out if they annoy us and keep their prize money!

And of course, the laws are applied the same regardless of who is playing! :D

[Badboy]

I've got a shaved head but I assure you I dont play for that team!

And im sure BE must know themselves that some people should be in the draw more then the others, surely if they get a few umpires like yourself in mark and perhaps a few tournament stalwarts a better quality draw would be ensured, and thats what the nationals is supposed to be, quality not quantity.

[Luncheon]

I agree Quality not quantity......which event would you rather watch.......
My post of 3rd Jan English Nationals best 32 in country.....
Smith
Kidd
Ghaffar
Honey
Rice
Ouseph
Ellis
White
Constable
Burgess
Edge
Haughton
Shuker
Hardcastle
Dunlop
Clarkson
Plant
Beckman
Sellwood
Wright
Gibson
Clarkson
Allinson
Marritt
Ashton
Smith
Kettle
Ventham
Peake
Fearns
Hall
Neilsen

or the current TOP 32....you check out some of the last few......theres definitely one in there who doesn't even deserve to be at the Nationals on any account!

[Bigdog]

Not sure who doesn't deserve to get to the Nationals - but considering he's given up singles I don't know how Clarkson got in there twice!!

Good to see that Mark at least made your list!

[alansd]

That was spotted back then by a few people and luncheon was mocked at the time!!

[Luncheon]

I'll refrain from voicing personal opinions, as I don't think they are on here to defend themselves......

I just copied that list from before, and I made the same silly mistake then....but if you're picking you're best 32 for a quality nationals and all of the "retired" players in that list wanted to play....they would be much better than some of the current top 32.

[Bigdog]

Given that he beat me a couple of weeks ago I would suggest Chris Dakin could take one of Clarksons spots (or mine for that!). Always been impressed by Hurrell's singles at Premier B, and would have thought that Paul Trumans rampage through the England players a few years back would be worth a 32 slot. Probably a few other of the top doubles players that may get a look in.

[Markymark]

Given that he beat me a couple of weeks ago I would suggest Chris Dakin could take one of Clarksons spots (or mine for that!). Always been impressed by Hurrell's singles at Premier B, and would have thought that Paul Trumans rampage through the England players a few years back would be worth a 32 slot. Probably a few other of the top doubles players that may get a look in.

Hurrell sometimes pulls out a really good performance in Prem B. But Dorset rely on him so much, he often opts out to make sure he picks up the doubles and mixed points.

[Markostar]

But why does he have a lower ranking?? The higher ranked guys haven't done anything wrong. They play events and the computer works out the points.

I agree than Mark is a stronger player, but you would have thought that, having the same thing happen to you last year, you would make damn sure you qualified and played the right events to make sure you did.

I think injuring my knee over the summer and playing only 2 tournaments before xmas this year may be why. Planned to play 10 domestic tournaments in a year to make damn sure it didnt happen again but only playing welsh int (irwansyah 18 & 10 1st round qual) and yorks challenger (hardcastle 15 & 15 2nd round hardcastle not seeded) gave me very few ranking points. Didnt even make it back in time to play a single elite tournament.... and another year down the pan!!!!

[Markostar]

But there are wildcards, aren't there??

The person is question just didn't get one. It might seem unfair but it would be even more unfair to deny someone who is, through their own effort ranked in the top 28 (however, dubious some people think that is), to be told they can't play "because we reckon that the person ranked 10 places below you would beat you 9 times out of 10".

Thats why I fully support qualification markymark!!!! Fair play to anyone on the ranking list who's worked hard at training and done better than me in tournaments, its good for badminton when people play as much as possible but what is the whole point of having qualification events at things like the super series tournaments? To open the draw up fairly to a wider ranked player. Happened at welsh and irwansyah won the whole thing. No qual and you get a diff winner.... not saying i'd be anywhere near winning the nationals but i'd have a chance of playing. This way up to a max of 88 people could enter and no-one can say they didnt get a fair crack. More entry fees for bton england, slightly more cost, better event.

Like you say life is tough..... qualifying and being tired for main draw is tough...... not getting a chance to step on court is gutting!!!!!!!!! Sure you'd be saying life's tough if it were you in the situation.

[alansd]

I think injuring my knee over the summer and playing only 2 tournaments before xmas this year may be why. Planned to play 10 domestic tournaments in a year to make damn sure it didnt happen again but only playing welsh int (irwansyah 18 & 10 1st round qual) and yorks challenger (hardcastle 15 & 15 2nd round hardcastle not seeded) gave me very few ranking points. Didnt even make it back in time to play a single elite tournament.... and another year down the pan!!!!

I had a look at the ranking list and it shows that you have actually got 10 tournaments going towards your total Mark.

[Markymark]

Thats why I fully support qualification markymark!!!! Fair play to anyone on the ranking list who's worked hard at training and done better than me in tournaments, its good for badminton when people play as much as possible but what is the whole point of having qualification events at things like the super series tournaments? To open the draw up fairly to a wider ranked player. Happened at welsh and irwansyah won the whole thing. No qual and you get a diff winner.... not saying i'd be anywhere near winning the nationals but i'd have a chance of playing. This way up to a max of 88 people could enter and no-one can say they didnt get a fair crack. More entry fees for bton england, slightly more cost, better event.

Like you say life is tough..... qualifying and being tired for main draw is tough...... not getting a chance to step on court is gutting!!!!!!!!! Sure you'd be saying life's tough if it were you in the situation.

Qualifying does seem fairest, I agree.

[Markostar]

I had a look at the ranking list and it shows that you have actually got 10 tournaments going towards your total Mark.

Yeah I know Alan, problem I have is only 5 of them are domestic tournaments having missed Herts sat, Yorks Elite, Cornwall Sat, Middlesex Challenger, Staffs Sat, Sussex Elite, Wimbledon Elite just this season. The other tournaments are ones i want to have a go at but obviously above my standard and tough to qualify in, they also only come around once a year.

I think the fact that if you miss half a season you miss the entire elite circuit (and possibly therefore the nationals) is something that could be looked at as there are quite a few potential ranking points missed out on. Also I'm not questioning my ranking, you get injured your ranking drops thats a fact of life but the point is it would be good for players like me and (hope he doesnt mind me mentioning) Harry Wright who are reserves for this years nationals who would have a good chance of qualifying and gaining some ranking points back.

I think its important to say that the ranking system is as fair a system as can be used but the difference between being dissapointed about having to play 3 rounds to qualify and being disappointed at not being able to play in your nationals at all for another year is massive.

[alansd]

I agree yourself and Harry should be in the draw but I do understand that its tough for Badminton England because with the greatest of respect to you if you have a very good day you will beat one of the 5 to 8 seeds but would you realistically have much of a chance against the likes of Nick, Raj and Nathan? This is why qualifying would be fairer than wildcards because only the likes of constable edge and perhaps haughton are going to know they will get them.
This was the reason I was saying that the likes of Hunt and Archer shouldnt just walk into a place in the draw, its tough going travelling round the country week in and out to play the sats leaving straight from work on a friday and not getting home until midnight on a sunday and I dont think the people that do it should be getting shafted like this.
Do you know how many people have dropped out?
Tomorrow night I am hitting with one of the reserves that is above you so will try to give him a kick for the right price!

[Markostar]

Haha cheers mate, i'll be up there thurs/fri so i may do some crocking of my own.

Think we are all generally in agreement, I dont think I should be in the main draw at all, there's 39 guys ranked higher than me and fair play to them but for someone in my position, emerging youngsters or anyone who's standard is higher than their ranking, a qualification event has to be the answer.

Think that debates be thoroughly thrashed out now, I'll make sure I refer Darren Parks to badders in my e-mail ;)

Good luck to everyone travelling up to manchester this weekend especially Warks & Brum Uni lot.

[Markymark]

Yeah I know Alan, problem I have is only 5 of them are domestic tournaments having missed Herts sat, Yorks Elite, Cornwall Sat, Middlesex Challenger, Staffs Sat, Sussex Elite, Wimbledon Elite just this season. The other tournaments are ones i want to have a go at but obviously above my standard and tough to qualify in, they also only come around once a year.

I think the fact that if you miss half a season you miss the entire elite circuit (and possibly therefore the nationals) is something that could be looked at as there are quite a few potential ranking points missed out on. Also I'm not questioning my ranking, you get injured your ranking drops thats a fact of life but the point is it would be good for players like me and (hope he doesnt mind me mentioning) Harry Wright who are reserves for this years nationals who would have a good chance of qualifying and gaining some ranking points back.

I think its important to say that the ranking system is as fair a system as can be used but the difference between being dissapointed about having to play 3 rounds to qualify and being disappointed at not being able to play in your nationals at all for another year is massive.

And Harry Wright beat Nathan Rice at the last Prem B weekend!

[austinrice]

can u pipe down markymark? they might put that northern xxxx in my spot! he beat me again in training the other day, having looked at the players who didnt get in i'm very relieved i did...

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Tone the language down Mr Rice!!

:D :D

[NateDogg]

I think this picture should justify Mark's wildcard into the nationals. Which event im not sure yet!

[alansd]

any event he wants......

[Markostar]

Haha, Thanks for bringing that pic to everyone's attention Wrigley... How long were you working on that for? Also, when Jens & Tom from BE see it and remove me from the WF Coaching Prog I'm going to sue you for loss of earnings!!!

[alansd]

I always wondered who natedog was so thanks for giving it away mark!!

[NateDogg]

Unfortunately for quite a while mark. I tried my hardest to get richy in there as well with you but the file was too large. As for the loss of earnings-that will be nothing in comparrison to the moddeling jobs you will be offered. Again im not sure in what type of magazines.

[FutureChamp]

Good to see Harry Wright is now in the draw - although Kidd may be cursing his luck again!

[Bigdog]

Mark - It looks like Gibson, Plant and Miles have all pulled out so 5th reserve may still be in with a shout. Bonsels is probably not too happy that Gibson pulled out only to be replaced by Wright! See you tomorrow (hopefully playing!)

[PeteG]

Taking the topic back to the title... Found out I am 5th reserve for the nationals again this year (same as last year) I am completely gutted and 100% in agreement with a qualifying round for the nationals as you can imagine.

Slip me a tenner and I'll see what I can do!! Seriously though, sad to see you aren't in the draw though mate. P.S. How much did you have to drink in that pic up there?!?!?!