Serving

[rhombus]

Dear All,

Switched over to BBC 2 at the weekend and MIRACLE UPON MIRACLE .......Badminton on the television........England v Germany.

A question to everybody :- Watched the mixed doubles only, the German girl Shenke?, HAVE THE SERVING RULES CHANGED TO SERVES MUST BE ABOVE THE WAIST BUT BELOW HEAD HEIGHT.

The point of contact with the shuttle was up by her chest. Not playing tournaments anymore, but if I was facing that type of serving I would call fault EVERYTIME.

[danbelcher]

i think Schenke got faulted a few times, twice at least

[flea]

The new rule now states -

"The server must make contact with the shuttle so that the action is one that cannot be confused with a jump smash"

other than that anything goes I think.

[danbelcher]

where's MaryMark when we need him?

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Markymark can't come to the phone at the moment, if you have a question regarding service please press 2......

9.1.5
the whole shuttle shall be below the server’s waist at the instant of being hit by the server’s racket;

9.1.6
the shaft of the server’s racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction to such an extent that the whole of the head of the racket is discernibly below the whole of the server’s hand holding the racket as in Diagram D;

[Woody]

The whole of the shuttle is supposed to be below the immaginary waist or lowest rib. This is extremely difficult to view.

At the U 19's yesterday there were some interesting serves.

Laura Cousins who is not very tall at all was picked up several times for 'above the waist' serves as were a couple of other people.

Fontayne Chapman's serve in her singles match was with the racquet almost horizontal. The shaft was just about pointed downwards but it was very close.

Interesting discussions with the Umpires over lunch revealed that at the World Championships in Madrid there was a lot of controversy as the asian Countries were complaing that the European Umpires were continually calling the Asian players and not the Europeans.

It transpired that the asian Umpires were not calling anyone at all so it appeared that the european Umpires were picking on the asian players.

It seems that in Asia anything goes but that the Europeans play to the rules as they know they will be picked up.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

For those who like pictures....

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Doesn't really show waist though....

[danbelcher]

my advice is to have a couple of ribs surgically removed

[danbelcher]

your info is old hat ChosenOne, its changed
THE CHOSEN ONE HAS SPOKEN RIUBBISH

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

you better tell BWF then, cos its straight off their website today..!!

:p

[Woody]

Read the rules guys the pictures are wrong.

There is nothing in the new rules aboput the head being discernably below the waist.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

You better tell BWF then woody, cos its straight off their website today..!!

(and right underneath the rules)

:D

[nasigoreng]

the rules for a legal serve has changed. the rule about the waist is still the same but the 'whole of the hand' rule has been removed. only the shaft of the racquet needs to be pointed in a downward direction.

[richard murray]

COR, too much playing with your monkey

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

the rules for a legal serve has changed. the rule about the waist is still the same but the 'whole of the hand' rule has been removed. only the shaft of the racquet needs to be pointed in a downward direction.

You better tell Woody then!! Hes an enforcer of the law!!

:eek:

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

COR, too much playing with your monkey

Stop talking about my monkey Tricky, try making some informed opinions on SERVICE ..!!

:D

[Woody]

Rules from BUA of E Handbook which is how myself and my colleagues apply the rules.

9.1.1 neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the receiver are ready for service. On completition of the backward movement of server's racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be consuidered to be an undue delay.

9.1.4 the server's racket shall initially hit the base of the shuttle

9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server's waist at the instant of being hit by the server's racket. The waist shall be considered to be an imaginay line around the body, level with the lowest part of the server's bottom rib.

9.1.6 the shaft of the server's racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be point in a downward direction.

The lines above in bold are the two new elements which have to be taken on board as theessential elements of the new service rules

[richard murray]

so if you hold it right you could sling it over the net? (as long as the services starting by hitting from underneath, followed by overhead delivery)

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

So......

The Badminton Umpires Association Of England have their own interpretation of the rules provided to them by BWF..... no shock their then!!

It seems that in Asia anything goes but that the Europeans play to the rules as they know they will be picked up

Correct me if im wrong woody, but is it not you guys that are "adapting" the rules?

[Woody]

COR

The BUAof E has to abide by the rules that the IBF write.

[rhombus]

Emms service looked right on the limit. Schenke was taking the mickey. Is it because a point is now lost if the serve goes into the net, that players are going to serve higher and higher until they get called. What's the rule now, is an opponent allowed to query a serve, if a service judge is there to make the call ?
I have played matches where players have obviously seen what people "get away with " at international level and use that as "evidence that their serves are not foul.
Foul serving is almost as bad as cheating on line calls....probably worse actually because it's happening on every serve.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

COR

The BUAof E has to abide by the rules that the IBF write.

So why are the reworded?

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Emms service looked right on the limit. Schenke was taking the mickey. Is it because a point is now lost if the serve goes into the net, that players are going to serve higher and higher until they get called. What's the rule now, is an opponent allowed to query a serve, if a service judge is there to make the call ?
I have played matches where players have obviously seen what people "get away with " at international level and use that as "evidence that their serves are not foul.
Foul serving is almost as bad as cheating on line calls....probably worse actually because it's happening on every serve.


If the Umpire doesn't call it, its not a fault....

If the Player questions the Umpire / Service Judge and the overule, maybe they were right to question.....?

You do get some right shocking Umpires, Line Judges and Service Judges these days..... no question!!

[alansd]

This is something that comes up a lot in league matches and I have had my service questioned a few times but never by anyone below the age of 50! In tournaments where there are service judges then people really have no reason to complain however in the vast majority of settings this is one persons call against another.
One person complained about it saying that after I set I move up a little which he reckoned was illegal and that the position of the top of my racket head was above my waist so it was a fault. He didnt seem to know that its point of impact. If people dont know the rules themselves how can they call it. Younger players may serve slightly higher than the more mature but you dont find so many of us slicing across it, a potential fault or with those oh so dodgy forehand drives into the backhand!!

[Woody]

In regards to querying any serve if its not being umpired and non available it's either put up and shut up or I would suggest get a copy of the rule book and afetr the match poilitely point out peoples errors.

If there are umpires available and the match has no service judge ask for one but beware often it's the person who asks for a service judge who gets called not the supposed illegal server.

[danbelcher]

if someone queries the legality of your serve, ask them if they are an umpire.
If they are, then they probably have a valid point.
If not, then raise two fingers above an imaginary line level with yoru lowest rib and wave them about

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

In regards to querying any serve if its not being umpired and non available it's either put up and shut up or I would suggest get a copy of the rule book and afetr the match poilitely point out peoples errors.

If there are umpires available and the match has no service judge ask for one but beware often it's the person who asks for a service judge who gets called not the supposed illegal server.

In the words of Neil Cameron himself......

"If you feel you are genuinely being cheated in an non-officiated match, then fight fire with fire and cheat your opponent right back, its bound to stop them right in their tracks......"

I like this Neil Cameron fella, he's got style!!

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

if someone queries the legality of your serve....

Tell them..... "I don't remember it being a fault in the Korean Open?"

:D

[danbelcher]

if someone queries the legality of your serve


make the noise that Hannibal Lector does

[rhombus]

In 99 % of all badminton played in this country, umpires are not around to judge cheat from non cheat. It is left to the individual , who again in 99% of cases is NOT AN UMPIRE. It is ridiculous to say that only a qualified umpire can interpret a serve. It the same as saying only international players can be coaches.

As alansd stated " those forehand drives down the backhand side" were common place in the 1970's and 80's. One such player who played 1st team county used to say he had never been called. Saw him a few times playing but he never used that particular serve in front of judges.
The funniest challenge of a serve I ever saw was from a highly respected coach who I played with in club matches when I first started. After 2/3 foul serves from the opposition, we regained the service. The coach threw the shuttle in the air and did a Tennis serve to win the point directly. "That's a foul serve said the opposition", to which the coach replied " YES BUT I AM BETTER AT IT THAN YOU ARE"

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

I like your style too Rhombus....!!

:D

[gjsims]

If it is serving advice you want I would recommend playing away to Chart Centre in either the Surrey League or the Crawley League. In the last few years no visiting player has EVER had a legal serve. Just go there and ask for Mr Salad Cream.

[Phil McBride]

I was always told that if anyone questions the definition of the waist being the lower rib the best way to gauge it is to hang an arm straigh down by your side and bend the elbow so it is at 90 degrees pointing straight out. The height of the bottom of the elbow is the leve lof the bottom rib for a point of reference.

The problem always lay with people thinking the waist is your waist line :rolleyes:

[NeilNicholls]

So why are the reworded?

You could be looking at the old version, as the BWF has (un)helpfully put both versions on their site if you go in via the "Statutes" link, then scroll down a bit

LAWS OF BADMINTON INDEX 43
* LAWS OF BADMINTON
* APPENDIX/BADMINTON FOR DISABLED PEOPLE
* RECOMMENDATIONS TO COURT OFFICIALS
* LATEST (RALLY POINTS SYSTEM YEAR 2006)

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Suprised they haven't put it on the Webiste in Malay as well....!!

Well Spotted Neil..., does this mean I owe Woody an apology..!!!

:eek:

[Woody]

COR

No apology needed

Facts speak for themselves.

BUAof E do not write the rules or interpret them they merely apply those that are written by IBF

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Thanks Woody, just remember if you ever have the misfortune of umpiring the Chosen One, you better have a full working knowledge of the rules.....

They are all open to interpretation in my book!!

[Woody]

Well I'm out your way in early March on route to Adelaide but only stopping in Singapore for a few hours so won't have time to Umpire you then. Shame!!

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Whats on in Adelaide in March....?

Serving conference?
(trying to keep it on topic!!;) )

[Woody]

I am a volunteer at the World Police and Fire Games.

I am not working at the Badminton unfortunately. All out doors events cycling, moto cross.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

You'll get a cheeky little tan this time of year, could be worse...!

[NateDogg]

In the words of Neil Cameron himself......

"If you feel you are genuinely being cheated in an non-officiated match, then fight fire with fire and cheat your opponent right back, its bound to stop them right in their tracks......"

I like this Neil Cameron fella, he's got style!!

COR-i think you would like my coaches style as well. i was playing a club match with him and he felt our opponents were foul serving-so he questioned the guy but they were having none of it. when dave had the shuttle to serve next he calmly served an over arm ace, and walked across to serve again. As you can imagine they were not happy and told him to stop being so silly (or words to that effect), to which he replied "admit you were wrong earlier and i will consider replaying the point.

[Woody]

I did get a tan last year at the Commies in Melbourne when the temperature didn't go below 90 of three weeks.
Looking forward to Adelaide and then a short holiday in Melbourne but its only thrre weeks away this year instead of 7.5 last year.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

We expect updates on the progress of your tan from Adelaide Woody!!

:)

[Woody]

If I can get on line I may make the odd comment but being away for three weeks in the sun means catching up with badders takes hours because of people posting all day.

I am out there to work as well of course.

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

and all night in the case of badders tag with me and mcbride!!

:D

[Dimo]

I vote for the badminton service to be like volleyball - you serve from the rearcourt, throw up the shuttle and whack it! You can choose whether to clear, drop or smash. Does away with half the service rules and 'out' literally means out of court. [OK, so today I've got writer's block and feeling a bit frivolous. Might try it though...]

[richard murray]

good idea, would you be able to serve underarm as well (so that it wouldnt be a men only sport)

[TheChosenOneReturns!]

Tricky, is that your signature?

If so, could you possibly make it a less agressive size? Im breaking my scroll button trying to read your posts !!