Where are they now ?

[Frodo]

After reading the article on ' Coaches must have Badminton Qualification' I cant help but wonder where this countries past stars are.

Are they professional coaches, if not why not ?

Are they still connected to the sport ?

Have we lost or harnessed what they learned about the game ?

[Grover]

You have Steve Badders and Steve Butler at the BAofE now. Martin Dew in Denmark. Derek Talbot did his sports shop and racket brand. Gillian Clark does TV stuff for sky.

Gillian Gilks ?
Mike Tredgett?
Nora Perry?
Jane Webster?
Elliott Stuart?
Roger Mills?
Tony Jordan?
Andy Goode?
Nigel Tier?
Ray Stevens?
Gillian Gowers?

[rachyuk]

Nigel Tier is currently the Manager of the Westgate Centre (Specialist Badminton centre in Hampshire, UK)

[Debbie]

Ray Stevens is now the Scots National badminton coach.

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

Miss Frog,

Most of the ex-pros like myself do small amounts of coaching but often from outside the system.

I think this is due to the fact that we are in many ways "maveriks" and do not easily fit into a rigid system. We need to be free spirits. In this way we tend to attract other free spirits who want to learn and move forward but don't want to be locked down.

We don't tollerate fools and politicians easily and can't be bothered with the process of meetings, political acceptance and time wasting. Therefore we opt out.

There are various smalls pockets of training groups around the UK working in this fashion.

In general the players who looked after their education whilst playing and who have the oppourtunity to work outside badminton actually choose that route. Those (except maybe Baddeley) who simply played badminton for a living have no choice but to proceed as a full time coach. I would not call that the best selection process.

I did a degree and a Ph.D. Baddeley has got two degrees. Three of the Danish players are on the route to become medical doctors. This gives people a way up and a future when at the old age of 30 they can't compete any more. It can be done. There is not need to force people to become full time players. You can maybe train for 4 hours a days. That leaves another 20 !!!

[Michael Banks]

Martin, I think the story behind all the players is interesting whether or not they are still involved with badminton.

Lawyer, Surgeon, Farmer, Insurance. No matter what people do now it is always interesting to see 'where are they now'? On a slightly different point, do we have any coaches/experts coming in from other sports or disciplines? Maybe that would allow for a different perspective on things.

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

The problem of coachng is a very delicate one. I could start a violent debate here!!

The problem is just this. Is it only
ex-international players that can bring young players on to be internationals?

You would expect your teacher in most subjects to know more than you. Is that then not the same for badminton. This raises the question of "what is to know more". Does playing experience give you this or is it reading books about badminton or going on coaching courses?

A person who has stood on the court on finals day at the All England really does have a different perspective from others. This cannot be replaced by coaching courses. When you get to this level its more about psycology and tactics and not how to generate a backhand.

However ex pros tend to lack man management skills and are a bad choice for immeadiate promotion to a leader post. It takes time to learn this.

For these reasons I hope that coaches do not and cannot come in from other sports. Quite simply they are not badminton people. That is not to say that ex-pros should not go through coaching courses. However these courses should be tailered to off court subjects such as eating habits, drugs, psycology, man management, finance, basic first aid, growing stages and problems with young children.

At present England have got is approximatly right. They have mostly English ex pros at the helm.

The only thing we need now is to tear down Milton Keynes and ge the lottery money back out to the counties. In this way we will encourage many more players back into the game and re-kindle the pryamid effect. (but thats another subject).

Until that time England will have to make do with a well fought and proud defeat in the first round in most events.

[Grover]

Just seen this about Rashid Sidek.

Former badminton player Rashid Sidek, who is making his acting debut in the movie Cinta 200 Ela has said his role as a golfer with personal problems is no different from his real life.

In the movie, Rashid takes the lead as professional golfer Yazid, a role which he carries quite well.

“I followed closely what the director wanted me to do. The expression was all mine and so is the feel for the character. I could relate to Yazid because he is also a sportsman who has his fair share of personal problems just like me,” said Rashid.

[Khalid]

I heard on the grapevine, that Darren Hall has decided to become a black cab driver, after his split with the BAofE.

Seems a bit of a waste of a talented player.

[Grover]

For real!! Not that I have a problem with cab drivers, but thought DH would do something with a little more activity.

[Trev]

I tend to agree with Martin, re the coaching. Watching the last Olympics with Simon Archer there taking advice from Darren Wood.

Not taking anything away from Darren Wood, who was a pretty good county player, the response he gets from Simon Archer ( gold medalist )when being coached by him is going to be completely different from when say Park Joo Bong ( All England Winner )is coaching him.

The coaches have to be respected by the current crop of internationals and if they haven't been there done that ... they will get the players thinking - How the hell does he know!

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

I don't think its particularly a problem of bad coaches right now but more the system. The last English person to get their names on the list of winners at the Danish OPen was Darren Hall in 1992 in Allborg. Even so I would class Darren as one of the old school. (he must be If I remember being on tour with him!!).

Hence during the last 10 years since 1992 not one English person has won the Danish Open.

I hope you can all realise that something is wrong. In my opinion its the closed system which prevents players with talent and who require freedom of spirit to come through.

A competitive system in England will only prevail once again if the system has minimum control.

[dlp]

Trevor, we made exactly the same comments about Archer's body language when Andy Wood was coaching him at the Olympics. Having said that he was under a lot of pressure at the time, although if ever you need to have a good relationship with your coach it was then.

I think ex national players start off with an advantage in terms of reputation. But in the long term it is qualities like professionalism, relating to players, time keeping, effort,discipline, attitude and of course quality of coaching on which players base their opinion.

If you are a coach who works with elite players you will always come to a point where the players exceed your own standard, unless you are PJB. Also for many current under 19s names such as Butler and even Hall would carry little weight. They quickly form their opinion on the basis of the work the coach does with them.

A think a disadvantage many former players have going into coaching is that they may have no experience of managing people or budgets etc, secondly they may fall into the trap of being "one of the guys" instead of keeping a separation between players and coaches.

[Balmforthk]

Martin,

Please can you elaborate on what you mean by the 'closed system' which you mention in your last note.

Also an earlier note of yours mentions getting rid of Milton Keynes and the 'pyramid effect'. How would this help and what is the 'pyramid effect' ?

Thanks.

[danbelcher]

Is it true that Darren Hall has walked away from badminton because the Baofe did not give him a coaching job? If so this is very bad news for british badminton. Could someone confirm this?

[dlp]

Rather than a true pyramid where we have perhaps 10 England A players, 30 England B players, 100 pushing for a squad place what we have would most accurately be described as a tower e.g. 4 A players, 4 B, 4 C then almost nothing.

Look at mens singles, Steve Butler has inherited 2 experienced older players in Haughton and Constable, 2 soon ready to step into their place in South and Ghaffar, a few youngsters with the potential for being "A" players possibly in Rice, Smith, Honey. Burgess who has broken in at the top as an outsider, showing that older players can make a break through.

Outside of these and a few other juniors we see few players in even their early twenties still pushing the top players.

How can we measure this? Well at the recent Denmark Open there were 12 Danes in the main draw (MS) and 22 who lost in qualifying.

At the All England this year there were 5 English in the main and 9 losing in qualifying.

I would guess this is a far reflection of the generally higher standard of the second string players in Denmark, hence they have the position where Rasmussen, Gade, Kenneth Jonason, Niels-Christian Kaldau and Anders Boesen are all world class players.

In England young players pursue their badminton through the various England squads but once they realise they won't "make it " they are likely to fall out altogether, the county system does not offer the support or competition for these players to continue, hence we have an all or nothing system.

In the last few years the drop out rate amongst the singles players has been high, to my knowledge Edge, Parker, Johnathen Lewis,Ben Hume, Shuker, Ben Williams, Simon Hardcastle have all been injured or dropped out of singles. (Apologies if my knowledge is incorrect for any of these players)Anyone of these players could be int he current top ten. If any one of our top players is injured we would find it impossible to cope in team competitions.

We need to bring through more players not just hope to pin all our hopes on one or two, then when injury, lack of motivation or other problems occur there are other players pushing for the place.

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

Reply To Kevin,

Darren Peterson has actually answered very nicely one of your questions about the pryamid coaching setup.

However you also asked about a closed system. With this I mean that once you accept lottery money your life is not your own. You are told when to train and how to train. In reality we are all individuals and need to train at different rates and in different ways.
Some wish to train 5 days a week , 2 times a day and some once a day.

Now Robertsen has just landed in Denmark and has broken away from the system. Lets see if that does him any good.

A rigid system takes away your personality and many of the things which would make a good player great.
The same effect happens in schools when your are told "its for the good of the class". In effect you hold the best back so the slower ones don't fall behind.

The system ought simply to be based upon results. After that, how and when you train is your own business.

Remember badminton is an art and not a science. Thats why you can't put people in boxes, label them and make them world class.

If you don't think badminton is an art form then I suggest you take up some other sport.

Here endeth the lession for tonight.

[Balmforthk]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the response. Those of us who just play local league (and county veterans) stuff, don't really get an insight into how the lottery money is used, how the 'elite' players are funded, and obviously we don't know that the players at the 'elite' level are told what to do, how to train, when to train etc. At a guess they're probably told which tournaments to enter as well. Seems to me each individual should have his/her own aims and goals with the coaches etc around them acting as mentors, not as dictators.

Despite knowing a couple of the players at Milton Keynes, as they originally came from my home town, we never get a chance to talk to them because we never see them as they now spend all their time in Milton Keynes.

Seems the elite are completely cut off from the rest of us....

[Geof]

Saw Gillian Gilkes last weekend , she was kind enough to present the prizes at the Kent open veterans tournament. She looks fit and well.I didn't get a chance to ask if she was involved in any capacity , advisory or otherwise.

[Geof]

[Pglews]

Bizzare stuff eh!! It would indeed be a waste for Darren to not have anything to do with badminton at all. The guy deserves some recognition.
Oh yeah, there's also Dave Eddy (Look at the all England results and you'll find out who!) who currently coaches at Birmingham University and who was also a bank manager.

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

Dave Eddy was one of Englands greatest players. He was attached to the England team when I was playing and played the role of a good mental coach to me.

I remember him telling me that one year he and Eddy Sutton got into 13 international finals and lost all of them. He won a couple of all England mixed titles I think.

A good player - a little dry maybe but take him as you find him and he can teach you alot.

[Frodo]

I think Martin makes a number of good points .. especially that Badminton is too centralised around MK. It would be good if there were a number of centres of exellence around the country.

I cant help thinking the BAofE have got it wrong re Darren Hall, especially after reading the article in their magazine this month. I would have thought he could provide a lot of knowledge and experience to the up and coming players, especially wrt to tactics and technique at the highest level.

The game changes every time one moves up a level. Maybe the BAofE think they have all they need in experience upto the highest level, but with such limited knowledge/experience around, anyone who has competed at the level he has would be able to make a significant new contribution.

Learning how to coach is impt, but one will allways be limited by what one can impart to the coached if the knowledge of the game is limited. You cannot teach stuff you dont know .. and no one knows everything about anything.

[Pglews]

Martin, absolutely, it takes a long time to get used to Dave, but he's a very knowledgable coach. He did indeed win the All England mixed, can't remember what year, but its in the back of the All England programmes.

[Steved]

Darren Hall as a taxi driver, No! English Badminton cannot afford to lose this top flight talent. He has a great deal of experiance at top international level to inject into our young players. What is going on?

[simonsays]

hes only a part time taxi driver he also works part time in a chippy!!