Womens badminton - participation and standard

[dlp]

Usually the lack of women/girls in sport is put down to these sort of reasons

"Women are likely to seek sport for social rather than competitive reasons, women are less aggressive, less confident, sports are male dominated, few female coaches"

Whilst these may be valid reasons do they explain why in badminton the inequality between men and women is getting worse, in my experience.

I attended an ESBA tournament last weekend (u13) whilst there were some 30 standard and 8 premier boys there were only a handful of girls and the grades were combined. At our county restricted this year 3 women contested the singles (2 of them juniors).

At opens and grand slams nationwide we regularly see womens' draws only half full, while the mens draws are oversubcribed.

Junior England squads through to county squads struggle to find female players to fill them, there are fewer women full / part time players than men.

All this leads to a big disparity between the standards of the sexes.

Look at mixed doubles, at every level there are 3 men to every 1 women of similar standard. The result, men playing with women several standards below their own level and a game in which the object is simply to hit winners against the opposing woman.

If the sort of entry I saw at the under 13 is continued there will be no improvement in this inequality.

Is it because fathers are more likely to push sons into sport than their daughters? Sport in genral is dominated by the male team events, football , cricket, rugby, yet in individual sports there are great opportunites for a sucessful female athlete. Look at the press Paula Radcliffe has received.

Some top players have supported the idea of splitting the world badminton circuit into two tours like tennis, this would definately spell the end of mixed as a serious game.

I know the BAE have in recent years tried to address the weakness of girls singles with a specific programme. Do we need women only clubs / courses?

[Grover]

This is a fascinating subject. I don't have any answers really except that it is happening in many sports now.

My thinking is that it is a combination of reasons. One of the main ones is the fragmentation of interests that kids/juniors have.

Now that there is more to do for the average junior (especially the girl) then they tend to migrate towards other activities. Those who do fancy badminton can't get a group (critical mass) to go with them. They then feel intimidated when they go.

This brings me onto my second point. The environment of a badminton club isn't very welcoming to single juniors. In other words, if a junior walked in from the street, often they are not made very welcome. They can't communicate/talk with the adults as adults would do, they don't often go to the bar (especially the younger ones) and their ability isn't 'perceived' as high enough for most adults.

Many clubs don't have junior sections anymore so it is a catch 22. No junior section. No other juniors for a new member to join in with. If they don't join, no junior section will be formed.

[dlp]

I agree, like many of the problems in English badminton it is hard to address with our current system. With bigger clubs owning their own facilities junior / female court time can be set aside easily. When clubs only have one night a week and are male dominated it is difficult for either juniors or women to be integrated.

[Kiwiplayer]

While heading to Milton Keynes for the last ICC premiere B league games, Julie Bradbury recounted how when she first showed up to the national junior squad training (I think that's what it was), the already established ones didn't make her feel particularly welcome. Comments like 'what's she doing here?' and all that. I guess she showed them.

But seriously, from personal observation, I find females have a different approach to competition. All the guys that I have played and trained with are always keen to play each other, even if they are fierce rivals. However, I rarely ever see female rivals playing each other except in competitive settings (ie tournaments etc).

On a different tack, when I use to compete in full contact karate tournaments, the blokes would hammer each other, but then all head off to the pub afterwards. For the girls, it was much more personal - They often seemed to really not like each other. The fights between the girls were always particularly vicious (moreso than the blokes). Downright scary.

Before anyone gets too offended (is it too late?), remember, these are just my observations.

[dlp]

There is a definate difference in the approach of most female players compared with the few top females and men.

In general any man in a tournament will go on court and even if he's the worst player against the number 1 seed will think he can achieve something, even when hes lost he will think that with more work / practice he will eventually be no.1. This competitive attitude is the basis of tournament play and training / progression. Some females clearly have this attitude, but they are exceptional.

Whether this is due to self esteem, reasons for playing, culture or whatever this is a fact and leads to the huge imbalance in entry levels and hence standard.

You can see that the weakness / lack of depth all the way up from junior to club to county level means we struggle to find international women, even more than men. There are huge opportunities in womens singles for young upcoming players to grasp the top few spots, hopefully some of them will.

Looking at how many ex chinese women now occupy top spots for European countries gives some idea how far ahead china are in the womens events.

[rachyuk]

Speaking from a women's perspective, young women can be particularly 'difficult' to harness to Badminton for a number of reasons:

* If they are the only one in their 'group' of mates who plays, unless they have a real passion for the sport then they are tempted into other sports or social activities.

*unless a parent or relative plays, they are less motivated to continue with training.

* it's uncool to get 'sweaty' for a teenage girl - again unless they are deeply passionate about the sport from an early age.

* Teenage girls can be very 'unforgiving' about each others strengths and weaknesses. Also peer pressure plays an important part in their life and 'acceptance' is key!

[Liang]

I couldn't be bothered to read all of the posts, so use me, it's late. But at first glance, I had to smile. From what I gathered in the first post, you feel that women aren't represented in sport, particularly badminton, enough. Well you can hardly expect women to suddenly participate just because you say 'there aren't enough'. It can't be helped. Sure, you can try and promote the sport towards women, and level out the men-women ratio, but at the end of the day, if women don't want to participate then they won't. It's not as if the facilities and oppurtunities aren't open to them, it's a personal choice. Men are more prone to sport then women, half of my female friends don't do anything in terms of exercise. Again, that can't be helped, it's a social thing *nods towards Rachel Phillips points* So, as much as it may frustrate you, deal with it and accept.

"This brings me onto my second point. The environment of a badminton club isn't very welcoming to single juniors. In other words, if a junior walked in from the street, often they are not made very welcome. They can't communicate/talk with the adults as adults would do, they don't often go to the bar (especially the younger ones) and their ability isn't 'perceived' as high enough for most adults."

Excuse me, I don't know which club you go to, or your experiences, but the one I go to is extremely welcoming to all ages. All the juniors (me included) get on well with the adults, and if they can play well enough to make a good game, then the adults don't mind them joining in. For example: I'm seen an equal to some of adults of the same level, and have never been patronised. And socially, I see juniors quite often at my club, even when they're not playing on Friday and Sunday nights, just talking together in the lounge, and watching the TV, or discussing with the adults. I'm generally pretty anti-social myself, but I feel comfortable in this environment =P And if it's a matter of 'the adults and juniors don't mingle', then I'd have to say that I get on with the adults better then the juniors, having known them for -in some cases - all my life, and play with them and not the juniors. Soo in my case, that's not true.
My father introducing me to badminton at a young age 'might' have something to do with it, but oh well.
Oh, and it's not just the club which I've grown up in, when visiting other clubs they have given me and my team/friends warm welcomes (whether it's junior/adult matches or friendly knock-a-bouts).

Well, I've finished rambling, so if you can make sense of that, well done, as I've forgotten why I first started typing ^^

*Rachel, a junior (daughter of Liang)

[Michael Banks]

Interesting points Rachel/John. It would be interesting to know where you play and what standard as this may have a bearing on your expereince. I too find there is a gap between junior and senior badminton. I'm not talking about elite juniors here but juniors who are starting out and looking to integrate into the adult section. Your comments on womens participation are interesting too. It is understood that there are more men playing sport but there are also many thousands of women playing many many sports and taking part in activities. Take netball, hockey, volleyball, aerobics, swimming to name just a few.

I still think there is enough reason to promote womens badminton and try and introduce more women into the sport.

[dlp]

Interesting points, while it may be true that less women will participate in sport even with a level playing field we currently have a situation where girls events are not viable to run due to lack of entries (county restricted/ open through to esba grading events) and the public complain about our lack of top womens singles players. We have had few women able to compete at European level since the mid eighties and there is an alarming drop out rate from junior England girls making the transition to senior play.

[rachyuk]

Has anybody asked the girls why they have chosen to drop out and after achieving so much?

Has their been a national survey conducted to look at the state of Junior participation? The gaps? The demographics? Doesn't it go back to a thread that took off earlier in the year about your location being the common denominator?

[Tracy]

I think one of the reasons for the lack of girls participating in badminton is down to the importance of peer groups.

It seems to be more important for girls to go shopping (they spend hours and hours just wandering around!), go to the cinema, have sleepovers etc. with their friends - much more so than boys. Girls feel a deep sense of being left out if all their school friends get together without them at the weekend.
Let's face it - many of them spend part (or all)of Saturday & Sunday playing badminton - it is a big commitment - and by the time they are sixteen, they are fed up of 'missing out.' Many of them are not prepared to make the 'social sacrafice' it takes to make it to the top.
I am not saying that it is not important to boys, perhaps they are more willing to miss out in return for being better badminton players.

Regarding poor turn-outs to tournaments - my daughter & her partner travelled for an hour to go to an Under 15 tournament, only to be told when they got there, that they were the only pair in the doubles, and the only two in the singles! How's that for a poor entry?

[coachman]

With regard to ways of improving girls participation in Badminton you may be interested in a scheme we started in Derbyshire Schools Association 2 years ago.We applied for sports funding and were able to set up 2 beginners coaching cells in and around Derby and it was decided to make one of them a girls only session. We beleive this enables the girls to attend without the possible embarrassment of 'boys' This is still going and has provided some girls for the county junior training sessions albeit only of an average standard as yet.

[RCE]

Since this topic was last raised has any one noticed any change in the amount of partisipation or has any one had any sucsess to share in getting more girls in the county circuit