Is a Champion Born or Made?

[hilly1285]

As simple as the title suggests - are sporting champions born with the innate qualities that make them potential champions or are champions made through hard training?

[johng]

Born

[Phil McBride]

Certainly not innate, Everyone knows that children who have badminton in their families are more likley to go further but it is certainly not in the genetics. It's more a factor that there is more than one way to become good at something otherwise training would follow a set regime and everyone would be the same automiton.Some people are good at badminton naturally but do not adapt to training, some are total crap and can be trained. It's that simple.

I would suggest a bit of both in no certain measures.

[hilly1285]

So your saying that our innate attributes that we are born with DONT affect our future sporting success, and that everyone is born with equal likelyhood of being a world class sportsman/woman?

Would you not agree that height has an effect on sporting success e.g. Taller people (in general) are better at basketball.

Also differences between different ethnic groups e.g. "Black men can swim"

We are also born with a set % of different types of muscle fibres, thus meaning if we have more fast twich (anaerobic) we are better at sprinting than those with more slow twitch.

[Phil McBride]

No, what I am saying is that everyone is different (even identical twins, although not genetically)of course if you take two random people they will both develop at different rates BUT they can be taught how to do things. Innate behaviour is the traits that we have lying dormant at birth that develop as we ourselvs develop and have somehow been passed on through our genetic makeup.

I am all to aware of the family genetics being passed on but they are not the be all and end all of who we are. Yes they help but they do not dictate to us our future or what we will do. If my great grand father was an axe murderer will my father be likewise and myself also. What you need to take into account is the environmental differences that we are all exposed to (ie) our life.

With that being said some people have a head start with natural talent but will it make a world champion wihtout the training? They are born and have natural ability but will have to be made into a winner.

If you take the obvious example of footwork and movement around a court, I myself find it simple to undersatnd but others do not and have to work harder. This is not innate because no one in my family played badminton and footwork patterns cannot be passed down through DNA but others have problems understanding the basic footwork patterns. Sure, I have large legs but this does not come from badminton but years of martial arts. Muscles can be trained and built up, I am good in tournament fighting but by nature am a pacafist. So am I like my parents? NO, they were never given the same oppertunities that they gave me as their child, but yes I learn from them.

I stand by my earlier comment a bit of both but in no certain measures. You can have talent but you need to be nurtured to achieve greatnes at any given thing.

[hilly1285]

Of course people will develop at different rates, but our physical traits are not lying 'dormant' as such, whereas out personality traits are dormant.

Obviously our genetics are not the 'be all and end all', but they surely dicate to a certain extent our future sporting success.

The example of the axe murderer is to an extent true, but surely that is more dictated by social learning (bandura), as we dont have a DNA strand associated to murdering people.

As Pierre de Coubertain (President IOC) once said "You cant make a champion out of a donkey" - basically meaning you need some special attributes to be born with to make a real champion

You say that you have large legs from martial arts, which will be because you will have trained very hard. However chances are that you have more fast twitch fibres than Fred Bloggs. Find someone with more slow twitch fibres, make them train as hard (if not harder) and they will never become as strong/fast as you.

There is no exact formula to make a person good at footwork, but wouldn't you agree that someone who was born mesomorph, agile, flexible and have a greater muscle definition will be better than someone who was born endomorph, slow and unflexible.

[freddiestranger]

B0ll0cks!

I believe that some people are born with certain skills, maybe it's excellent hand/eye co-ordination skills. This would be the basis for a good badminton/tennis player but this person must still practice and trian to become a world champion.

It's part of one and part of the other. To claim that you have to be 'born' a champion is like saying it's your destiny and nothing or no-one can stand in your way, that's nonsense! You can't just do nothing all your life, get up off your backside one day and win the world title just like that.

Yes some blood lines or families may have muscels that have addapted differently or larger sized lungs or quicker reflexes but at the end of the day, it's all down to training.



Michael Hills:
Where did you get the notion that black people can swim? Is it from the constant sinking of their boats in the great African lakes cos I've never heard of that phrase!

[Phil McBride]

Again I have to differ, compensation makes a big part of peoples games.

And no I do not have large legs bacause I trained hard, I have large legs obviousley because of an innate trait because my family all have large legs.

No, I do not know why I have large legs and am quite flexable.

But I am a believer that you can be taught and you can compensate for your weaknesses. I beg to differ about dormancy, out traits develop because of our experiences and environmental stimulus that we are exposed to, thats what makes us who we are. Therefore we are not good at badminton at birth nor did I have large legs when I was born or that might have put my mother through more pain than she could bear.

I would therefore suggest that we do not have a physical capability strand of DNA either.

If I can revert to my past, When I wanted to join the army I started jogging to get to the mile and a half in under the 10.30 level of acceptance. The first time I did the run it nearly killed me and took about 14 minutes. By the time the test came I was within the time limit as a result of my training.

If you want something bad enough you will work hard to achieve your goals, oh by the way I have asthma, the only way to keep this at bay is not by medication it is by pushing yourself so that you train yourself not to rely on the medication and can go longer without thinking that you need to puff your inhaler.

I don't think you need any special atributes to be good at what you choose to do, if you want it badly enough and are not afraid of the hard work involved your donkey can indeed become world champ (although I think thay would almost certainly use a pan handle grip for all shots)

Again I am not a runner I had to practice, its not something I am able to do well, but there are others out there that can.

Anyway all champions are born otherwise they would not exist!!

[hilly1285]

For starters it is Michael Hill and not Hills, but i will forgive you on that one ;-). Its a proven fact they cant swim because they have a higher muscle density - just go to any arfican country and you will see my point.

Im not saying that we are simply born a champion with no training, but i am saying that without a good group of innate attributes - no matter how hard that person was to train they will never reach the top.

This is where the saying 'in the pursuit of excellence' comes into play, because to reach the level of excellence all the performer has to do is reach the highest level possible, whether that is club, county, national or international.

[Khalid]

and I thought it was 'cos they couldnt afford swimming pools
...

so is the high muscle density gene related to the skin colour pigment gene ?

Q: Are brown people better swimmers then black people, and are yellow people better swimmers then brown ... presumably white people are the best.

Please tell me where red people stand in this heirarchy.

----

I conclude that elephants and hippos are really just inflatable balloons, thats why they can swim

[freddiestranger]

I've gone off you now Michelle Hills. You're obviously racist (making wild accusations that black people can't swim) but this isn't enough to compensate for the boring lecture you just gave us.


Very good statement indeed Khalid, I for one would be interested to see this heiarchy. Perhaps Michelle Hills could draw up a blood line too?

Perhaps all these 'badminton genes' that he says some of us are born with can be traced back to a single family or person. A "Badminton God" if you will. I wonder who our God is?

[hilly1285]

Nope the HMD Chromosome isn't at all related to Melanin!

True about the black, brown, white heirarchy. Not sure about red people - why dont you ask Po (the teletubbie)!

Also Hippos cant swim!

[JohnEllis]

Interesting debate folks.
But lets be careful here.
I believe we should use what talent becomes available.
This is part of our culture.
If we take the topic too seriously and crave success too much we will be left with selective breeding (or heaven forbid genetic engineering) to produce babies who are then sent to badminton school and not released until we are No1 in the world.
Thankfully you are too late to affect my son.

[Phil McBride]

Michael are you saying that coloured people cannot be taught to swim if they cannot swim initially?

Is there an entire chromosome related to muscle density, or do you mean the gene is on a chromosome?

And if hippo's cannot swim elephants sure as hell can, even if it's only doggy paddle.

Or does the above confirm your question that elephants without any kind of training are crap at the 100m crawl and will be beaten by other animals with better innate responses?

Can the elephant be taught to improve? Will the other better swimming animal be receptive to the same training as the elephant?

Too many different points of view for this question, and in fact too many vairiables to be factored into any equasion!

[hilly1285]

[hilly1285]

Yer we should use what talent becomes avaliable, but surely testing children at a young age to see which sports (if any) they are suited to wouldn't be a bad thing aslong as we dont then force them into playing!

Im not saying that black people cant swim - im not a racist, but like i have been saying all along, get 100 black children and 100 white children, train them all for 6 months. At the end of the training a much larger % of white children will be able to swim.

[Phil McBride]

It's difficult to test every child and with the boundries of many sports merging you would have problems there as well as trying to implament some kind of practical way of testing all children in a specific manner.

[freddiestranger]

I said it before Michelle Hills and I'll say it again, some people are born with certain skills (e.g. hand/eye co-ordination). This can lead to tennis, badminton, squash, table-tennis, golf, cricket - any racket/ball sport.

So I believe that some people are suited to certain sport genres. But it's still down to the individual to train and learn the sport that he/she (like women can play sports!) chooses. The genone is only a tiny part of the puzzle.

Phil:
Not every child. Just the white ones.

[hilly1285]

Well China and Russia do it with every child, they have a specific week of the year where they test every child X years old.

They will obviously be some sports which require similar attributes, but in china they have always found a dominant sport.

They also do psychological testing on the children to see if they are in the right mind set to play sport at a high level

[freddiestranger]

Russia is doing something wrong then as they only seem to produce lesbian singers and shot-putters.

[Phil McBride]

Don't mean to be racist in any way but it is a lot easier to implament something in an eastern or dare I say communist country where the regime is almost automated.

I think there would be parents who would object to their precious little angels being tested. But in Russia and China it (sporting ability) is seen as a way out of their more mundane life and a way to advance in society that they may not have otherwise had.

[hilly1285]

For starters you arn't born with good hand eye coordination you learn it through social learning. Inniate qulaities are those such as height, lung/heart/muscle size etc.

Well if the kids parents dont want them to be tested - then so be it. But i think you would be suprised the number that would.

Well lets not forget that in the Sydney olympics that russia and china finished 2nd and 3rd over all for medals, which is a hell of a lot better than GBR 10th place. Some how i think that their way is working.

[freddiestranger]

In your opinion Michelle.

For someone who asked a question you seem to have alot of answers. Is this an ego boosting exercise?

[hilly1285]

Freddie - you thick?

Ive already told you the reason why!

[freddiestranger]

Michelle don't lose your temper darling. It's only a question.

[hilly1285]

Yer but ive already answered it, would you like me to speak a little.................slower..............?

[JohnEllis]

Gents yo are losing it big style here!
Hand eye co-ordination i believe is a skill that is learnt. Although having sporting parents will help from birth too potentially. But i believe the parents ability allows teaching to be more successful.
Testing.
We do test in this country. The BAofE test young players now. But not i believe for selection purposes but to measure progress or otherwise against set targets.
The question is at what age should this start. The younger the more likely to cause objections and rightly so in my opinion.
It is better to make yourself a champion through dedication, determination, ability, luck and hard work than to be born one.
So lets leave creating champions at birth to the Chinese and Russians and congratulate those British players who are pushing them for honours against the odds.

[Phil McBride]

Quite difficult to compate two totally different ways of training and indeed societies.

It's all very well the BA of E testing established juniors who can play and are engaging in fitness work allready to see how much progress they are making but I think what Michael is getting at is testing kids at a certain age to see if they have X sporting ability before they start out properly, so the ones that have an aptitude for the game regardless of the chosen sport are then chosen for further training based on the fact that they have the natural talent to use as the foundations to build on.

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

A artist takes a rock. He chips away at the rock for many hours and eventually finds the work of art!

A player is the same. The world champ is always there but it just has to be revealed.

Or in other words - players are born but they have to be trained, fine tuned, coached, helped ......

[Kiwiplayer]

Some of the arguments made here against genes being important for elite sports, seem to be born from a sense of unfairness that someone could have an advantage because of something as undemocratic as heritance.

Life, however, is not fair.

And sport is no exception.

[hilly1285]

Yer but martin if the artist uses chalk to create his master piece it will just fall apart. In other words the foundation has to be there is order to make a champion, if it is not there the champion/masterpiece will be none existant.

Thats exactly right Phil then we could specifically nuture those players who show a potential. The British children start playing sport at the same age as the Chinese/Russians, however out of say every 1000 children maybe only 1 will make it to the top in their chosen sport. Whereas in China/Russia this is a much higher percentage.

NB: we are talking about competitive sport and not recreation.

[stuartwardell]

So Hill.
Are you saying that China have up to now had very good luck in having in there country all the natural born players?
To me they are just better taught.

[hilly1285]

Well WARDELL!

Im not saying that at all, what i am saying is that in China/Russia they recoignise sporting talent at a very young age and can thus nuture that talent. Whereas in england we just leave it down to a bit of luck.

[eddypeppers]

Utter crap Michael,we have talent here and its spotted at an early age but its not as good as most other countries anymore.

[hilly1285]

No need to swear - but you have just answered your own question - WE DONT SPOT IT AT AN EARLY ENOUGH AGE! thats exactly my point.

[eddypeppers]

Read back and i think you will find that it wasnt your point at all.
Try playing the game first then come up with your great ideas or beating that get a job with the BAOE.Thats just up your street.

[dlp]

Michael, I see what you're getting at but as I pointed out in a previous thread badminton is far from a fitness test. Certainly the top 50 players in the world are all very fit but matches are not decided by fitness alone. By this I mean you couldn't measure the specific fitness of every person in the draw, and assuming they all performed at their maximum predict the winner. You could do this in any track event, swimming, weight lifting etc. But in badminton the fastest player does not necessarily prevail, nor the most powerful, nor the best endurance, nor the tallest, shortest etc so very few players would be precluded or guaranteed success on a genetic basis.

For every hundred kids that hit a shuttle at age ten perhaps 10 will be in a situation where they have the coaching, parental support, economic support, facilites etc to progress through to world class start. This is why there are hot spots for producing talent around the country. This is what the governing bodies try to address. Fitness testing occurs as a part of selection for wcs already, but can only serve to highlight weakness / strength, not as a selection tool in itself. A technically/tactically good extremly unfit player or small player winning in his age group will always be selected over a fitter/"genetically more gifted" player.

If you coach young players you would know that their base fitness level will have little to do with their progress / performance, so it would be difficult to spot players who were "born" to be champions.

[eddypeppers]

Michael,as Pierre De Coubertain once said there is a fast twitch muscle in my body which is to fast and keeps getting me in trouble.
You no what i mean dont you michael?

[Grover]

Just to get this back on thread and away from petty squabbling ;)

There is no doubt a person needs natural ability in order to be great at what they do. You cannot train anyone to be the best in the country or world no matter how good the coaching is. A champion is the combination of great talent and great nurturing.

The reason that the Chinese have more success is that their best natural athletes go into sports like badminton. In this country the best athletes perform in other sports such as football, rugby, athletics to name a few. They don't choose badminton. Out of the top flight athletes in England very few ever get near a badminton court.

[eddypeppers]

Sorry Grover.

[eddypeppers]

D Peterson,are you talking about English young players at the end,because England seem to only pick a small handfull of the top players and they are normally the strongest and the fittest.
Iam not saying that it should be like that but its a fact so coaches in England are being forced to get there youngsters fit not racket talent which shines through later.

[smith]

I think that it is a bit of both! A good player can not only be a great player without training and working hard. Yes! a good player can be born with special talent in the sport. Take taufik hidayat for instance he had so much potential and talent but at the same time he must have worked damn hard to get to were he is right now. I think as i have already mentioned it's a bit of both.

[dlp]

What I said was that fitness testing does occur as part of wcs, for measuring progress , but that I doubt selection decisions can be made on the basis of that alone, nor as MH suggests at a younger age on testing of athletic potential.

The development of a ten year old beginner to a national standard 14 year old is likely to depend on skill acquisition, psycholgy, economic background, geography, parental ambition/support, coach, competition in locality. The inherited mixture of body type etc is unlikely to be the main factor. I doubt any national standard 14 year olds are at anything like their 100% genetic potential for fitness. Children with the ability to work at speed will of course prosper but the proportion of that which is genetic versus developed would vary.

If we were discussing sprinters or endurance athletes in which the required elite body composition etc could be predicted and measured then I would agree that many athletes could be ruled out of future world success on the basis of genetics, but I suggest badminton is far too complex a sport for that easy relation to be made.

[hilly1285]

I wasn't only talking about testing for badminton, but all sports. Obviously badminton is a hard sport to determin the exact qualities to make the perfect player. But surely we would all agree that the person needs to have good speed, explosive strength, muscular endurance, stamina, agility, dynamic balance, flexibility, coordination and possibly the most important being psychologically fit.

But ok if your not agreeing with testing at a young age for whatever moral or ethical reasons. How about setting up coaches who go into primary schools and introduce the game of badminton to youngsters around 5/6/7 years old. Or more logically racket sports in general e.g. tennis, badminton, table-tennis. This would the get the kids intrested in racket sports at a young age and will also give them a head start to the majority of players who start at the age of 10.

This initiative has been used in our area for gymnastics, with the company that runs the business called Gymschools. They now have over 150 coaches, who coach at over 250 schools. It has been running for only 4 years but they have seen a massive rise in the standard of kids entering local gym clubs, and who knows how successful the scheme will be in 10/15 years time.

[smith]

LIKE I SAID IT IS BOTH COMBINED A GREAT PLAYER IS BORN AND MADE AND ONLY TOGETHER CAN YOU CREATE A WORLD CHAMPION!

[hilly1285]

Exactly Mr Beer - lol (sry).

But your point is 100% true, in our country we just need a way of indentifying that talent and utilising it in the correct way.

[freddiestrangerer]

he says with a name like Michelle Hills.


So you think we should have national testing of a variety of motor skills etc to tell people what sport they have to play? FInding people with a certain skillset is one thing, encouraging them to proceeed is another. I refer you back to The Coaches discussion:
http://www.badders.com/forum/thread.fmi?tid=560&n=10&p=1

[Colinh]

A champion is definitely born and not made. I agree with Hills, black men are crap swimmers and always will be, however, they can run very fast. It has been passed down through the generations. They have a greater percentage of fast twitch muscles in their body. If enough of them start playing badminton maybe we will see a black World champion soon. Their fast twitches are suited for badminton, we should encourage more black players into the game. I have no black members in my club and I think this it typical in most clubs throughout the country, I would like to see that changed.

[dbergkamp]

I agree Colin although there are a few black badminton players in my club but they cant play to save there lives.
As pierre de coubertain once said the faster they are the bigger there twiches.

[hilly1285]

I would probably guese that there are not any black players because badminton isn't really played in any black dominated countries. The few who do play are generally british citizens.

And Contrary to popular belief (well at least with a few badders.com members) not because they have large twitches! :-$

[Phil McBride]

Colin are you saying that all champions are born and not made, training counts for nothing.

If so how many generations of selective breeding will it take till a UK player will dominate the world.

i have a feeling this kind of experiment may have been tried before!

[hilly1285]

Well if its been tried before then its not been very successful.

[Frodo]

To suggest that a whole continent is unable to produce swimmers due to some genetic defficiency is just so ignorant.

Its even more ignorant when one talks about Africa in these terms, simply because people in Africa have the greatest genetic diversity in any continent. Do people realise how large Africa is, with its diverse range of cultures and people ?

People, particularly of European descent, whose genetic inheritance is Asian and in turn whose genetic descent is African, always seem to put forward some reason or another why they are better at this or that, or why they are not succeeding at something or other.

It is a nice convenient excuse to locate this reason in ones genes. You get good runners in Africa because it costs little to run long and short distances. These folks live their life on their feet, walking, carrying things etc ... they are poor. It is just pseudo science of a poor eugenic nature to suggest such nonsense.

Reminds me of the Hitler Olympics, when they thought they could breed an Aryan master race. Well it simply has not worked.

Folks in Europe just do not appreciate the facilities thay have access to - basically they are spoilt.

The ones that arent and appreciate what they have and have the discipline and the correct environment - facilities, coaching etc are the ones that make it.

[hilly1285]

You have just put forward a reasonable argument, but with one slight problem. You are moaning at us for saying that a whole continent is unable to produce swimmers, yet in the top 150 swimmers in the world their is only one from Arfica (RSA), surely these facts speak for themselves, especially when you see the size of the continent.

Talk to any person who has a slight knowledge of sports science and they will back up the fact that black people cant swim.

Also you are moaning at us for being ignorant towards africans yet you have just slagged of the whole of europe saying that we are "SPOILT" - a bit ignorant don't you think?

[Khalid]

Black people can swim ... I've seen them swimming in my local swimming baths

[Khalid]

they may not have a representation in the top 150, but there may be other reasons for this.

its easy to make sweeping statements, but harder to prove them

since u seem to know so much about genetics, maybe you could tell us how this particular gene works to form more dense protein structures ?

[allbeano]

As a good mate of yours Michael i have to agree with Khalid here.Maybe black people in general get more stimulated by track and field games.
I do think that facilaties have a big part to play.Hills have you seen the conditions of swimming pools and even Badminton courts in Africa.Maybe they are just not trendy enough sports,and beating that have you asked Piere de Coubies.

[freddiestrangerer]

All Beano - I hear Nigeria has amazing Badminton academy's. There's this chap who is doing amazing work over there, he's name escapes me for now.....

I'm sure Piere de Coubies would have got nowhere if it wasn't for his genetics and DNA make up of the dyngonometric strands in his muscle ferbibular optical fibres though - maybe Michelle has a point.

Black people are only good at running ... strange that.

[hilly1285]

Bloody hell peeps - its saying, obviously some black people can swim - but here are some facts - if you want me to prove my point.

Number of Black people in the top 250 swimmers in the world - 1

Percentage of black women who can swim 25m or more - 11%

Percentage of black men who can swim 25m or more - 6%

Percentage of black men/women who can swim 100m or more - 3.2%

Surely these figures speak for themselves, who more do you want me to do to prove it.

(btw the figures were taken from 9,000 black people by sportengland in 2001)

[freddiestrangerer]

That maybe back in 2001 Michelle but we've had a few imports since then, maybe these figures have changed since then?

And mind your language sunbeam, mother wouldn't be pleased to hear that sort of langauge.

[Khalid]

so they can swim now .. but not very far.

i am sure i saw them swimming a few lengths - maybe these were the exceptions

[freddiestrangerer]

Are you sure these were black people and not the hippopottimi or elephants?

[hilly1285]

For starters it isnt a specific gene - but a combination of preditermined RNA carriers that predispose themselves according to certain genetic curcumstances.

Also the more dense the protein structures the less volatile the RNA carrier are thus meaning a greater chance of genetic mutation.

You said 'dense' but how dense are we talking about,by which calculation are we using and which type of amino acid are we talking about?

[Khalid]

56,000 .. thats a cracking sample size. They must have checked almost every black person in Brixton.

They dont even use sample sizes that large for General Elections.

[eddypeppers]

Ok michael so you have just passed your GCSE in sports science.

[freddiestrangerer]

Shall we club together and give him a gold medal?

[hilly1285]

Try getting 'A' level in sports science, this board used to be good when people could have a good discusion - but now it is cr@p cos of you lot being tw@ts. Ruining it for the rest of the regular users.

[Khalid]

no, u said dense ... I said nonsense

>>they have a higher muscle density - just go to any arfican country and you will see my point.

>>by which calculation are we using and which type of amino acid are we talking about?

u tell us, u brought the issue up

[freddiestrangerer]

<< tosses Michelle Hill's toys back into his pram >>

Are we going to be tested on this at a later date?

[eddypeppers]

I can hear him thinkin from over hear.
Come on michael dont let us down let that piere de combinharvesters quotes keep coming.

[eddypeppers]

Khalid maybe you can shed some light on Pierre de cancoialy?

[hilly1285]

Anyway peeps, thanks for keeping me entertained for the past few days. Glad to know that you havnt anything better to do on a friday night.

Wont be on as much any more cos im going to uni to get an education (thats pronounced ed·u·ca·tion).

Have fun in the future, will see you on here in about 4 years time when your voices might be a bit deaper (im talking to you matt).

Good luck with your 'problem' james (cant say too much else will get kicked off the board)

Actually who really cares - tis the last time im comming on anyway.

You have single handidly ruined the message board, but hey BOTHERED!

A departing message - MARSKE RULE!!!

[Kapow]

Hi all. Very ineresting talk. I new here but been reding this chat for while now.

I think a few things but please excuse my English speaking:

For shuttler to be good he must start young. My father put racket in my hand at 12.

I had ability for all sports so shuttler important to have good eye to hand codination.

Disciplin for training - attitud and respect for other shuttler. Have seen many good shuttler at national level think they are good but not good as not top level champion not best shuttler, must learn more! I respect always Frost and King. Based my game on strength of these shuttlers.

Hope I help all.

Thanks.

[Khalid]

sorry, no can do

I have the wrong genes

[eddypeppers]

Thats no michael hills again is it?

[freddiestrangerer]

Him and his aliases. I'm getting very annoyed and fustrated now. It's people like him that put me off this 'banter' board.

[freddiestrangerer]

Looks like our posts are being removed ... land of the free indeed!

[Kiwiplayer]

Micheal,

-------------------
You wrote:

"For starters it isnt a specific gene - but a combination of preditermined RNA carriers that predispose themselves according to certain genetic curcumstances.

Also the more dense the protein structures the less volatile the RNA carrier are thus meaning a greater chance of genetic mutation."
-----------------------

I'm sorry, but as researcher that's worked in the biosciences and medical research for the last 9 years or so, I'm afraid the above sounds like something out of a science fiction movie. I hope it's not something they teach at A levels :(

Don't take it personally - I happen to agree with the original premise that the potential (note: POTENTIAL) to be a world champ is genetically determined. However, not everyone will live up to their potential.

[Michael Banks]

Wayne, perfectly put!

"I happen to agree with the original premise that the potential to be a world champ is genetically determined. However, not everyone will live up to their potential."

A statement that is very difficult to argue with.

[Phil McBride]

Very good! I think thats what most people would agree with. To say that you are born a winner and will beat everyone on genetics and raw tallent is so wrong.

What we need to remember is that Michael (Hill) is probably concentrated on sports sciences and his knowledge is probably more specifically suited to sports but general genetics can countermand most of these original premises.

I also specialise in genetics and biology but do agree about the potential wholeheartedly.

I think that this is the term that perfectly sums up the entire thread.

[Grover]

But isn't Michael right? The point is you are given what you are give. Some people are given a body that will never attain a high level of success at sport. You cannot train just anyone to be a champion no matter how good the coaching is.

Given the right combination of both natural ability, and good training, not just one but both, you can become a champion.

[hilly1285]

Unfortently that was an actual quote from my notes made in lectures. But hey everybody says that 'A' levels are rubish and that probabaly proves it.

Thanks for the critical comments, nice to see that the site is getting back to how it used to be.

Grover thats exactly right and finally i have someone agreeing with me.

[Phil McBride]

Grover I refer you to my original posts.

BOTH COMBINED, NEITHER ONE NOR THE OTHER.

[Grover]

Then we both agree then ;)

[Phil McBride]

Sort of ;)

[Darrenh]

I think Grover and Michael Hills are the same person.

[hilly1285]

Nar, grover is slightly older than me!

[freddiegotfingered]

I think Michelle Hills is a girl.

In your summary you failed to cover the swimming issue. Which African animals can/can't swim and the same for humans too.

[xxmexx]

does it matter?????

[Morrissey]

I think it's obviously a bit of both and how this discussion has reached 8 pages is beyond me!