Lottery Funding .vs. Performance Related Pay

[bikerchic]

With some of the comments made on the thread regarding Wimbledon should we continue to Lottery fund the masses or reward on results..performance related pay ?

Should we continue to fund trips abroad for senior players who are obviously never going to past the first round or say this year qualify for the Olympics, or could this money be better invested in our top juniors ?

[johng]

As regards performance related pay, does this not already happen....the higher up the world rankings you are....the more lottery funding you get.

I also have a feeling that of the money the players get, a huge percentage is lottery based, and that there are clearly laid down rules that stipulate how this is allocated

[Michael Banks]

Are there guarantees of lottery money over the coming years or may this dry up in time and be allocated elsewhere?

If it does disappear, doe the BAE have the revenue streams to be able to cope with the difference?

[johng]

An interesting point about not funding players who fail to pass the first round of tournaments... I can see the point you are aiming at...but what a nightmare deciding who it applies to...Do you stop funding Andrew Smith because he gets knocked out in the first round by top seeds, but continue to fund Colin who perhaps lasts untill the 3rd. Having said that..I agree with the principle you make, indeed players are regularly dropped from the squads when results begin to drop off or they fail to deliver

[Lewisio]

An article on the baofe website stated results from one of the far eastern tournaments. It quoted "self-funded Andrew Smith". So he doesn't get any funding at the moment, or not much.

[Michael Banks]

So is the funding allocated depending on the stable of the payer. In other words, those that train at MK are under the BAE funding and those who want to train and play out of another stable have to fund themselves?

[bikerchic]

I agree it does cause a headache for those deciding 'to drop or not to drop' but Andrew, from what I gather, is a young up and coming player, whose results in the Denmark tournament and the Canadian Open show that he goes past the first round. If he has gone out to Asia on his own funding then this really needs to be questioned. OK he may have gone out at the same stage as Colin, but who has the bigger future...I would imagine Andrew because of his age and Colins lack of results over the last few years. I am just throwing the question open to debate ..another example should we be funding Jill Prichard to go out to the US open ..for what impact when perhaps Michelle Cheung (I think thats how its spelt) could have gone out and had a great deal of international tournament experience and perhaps the confidence booster to thinkt hat the BAofE does take seriously its youth players and is willing to invest in the future ???

In answer to Micheal's question with regards to the future of lottery..no there is no long term committment..if the Tory's were voted in at the next election they could massively down grade the whole system..and contractually the BAofE does not have to fund players, so back to square one. I am under the impression tho that Loterry are being more tight with their money this year and expecting greater results (like being in the top ten in world)so apart from 3/4 players the rest could be all stuffed anyway.

[Grover]

I don't think the BAE should necessarily fund players. Instead the money should go towards development and encouragement. The actual expenses and subsistence of the players should be managed through sponsorship which is one of the responsibilities of the BAE. Trying to get funding from non-badminton organisations, I believe Avis is putting money into badminton in the US for example.

Hand outs will only last so long, instead partnerships and business arrangements should be set up to gurantee long term funding and revenue.

[bikerchic]

Good point..what is the BAofE doing regarding sponsorship and funding opportunities ? Is there someone employed there witht hat specific role ? What policy's are in place to achieve this ?

[johng]

BAofE have been looking for sponsors for years..prob is they are hard to find.

BAofE site gives details of deals arranged between BAofE and Rover Cars, also with Hotel chain

[bikerchic]

Who benefits from the Rover car deal ..when I went tot he worlds I woalked throught he underground rear car park and noticed all the new BAofE company cars..so they probably got a deal for their new cars what about the badminton..hotel chains..fromt he BAofE site prices these are not that much cheaper (if at all) I'm sure the top dogs will get free accomodation in these hotels during the nationals etc but where is the money forthe badminton, if the US badminton tea can secure funding with their current status then why cant we in the UK ?

[dlp]

This is one of the most frequently discussed topics on badders, and most misunderstood.

To my understanding the baofe, like the other sports, receives lottery money directly to support the elite/potential/start players, it applies this money based on set criteria. Funding is limited, the number of players at all levels has been cut. The number of events funded is limited for all players.

Smith has played more events than any other 2 english players put together on the international circuit, this is because he has funded it privately. I believe he had played 20+events in a year, clearly the baofe cannot fund this even for the number 1.

The lottery money received depended on achieving specific goals at major events and the baofe cannot choose to drop Haughton as suggested! The players are allotted money on the basis of results, future potential to win medals.

I would agree there are some older players there who are making up the numbers and will never be full internationals and it does seem a waste to send them to events when some of the under 21 get no trips, the under 21 need to be given more frequent opportunity to play and beat these players.

To suggest that Haughton/Mann could be dropped is crazy. Just because they are no.1 and do not beat asians does not mean they should be excluded, without players like these to aim for the younger players would have no way of bridging the gap to international.

There is a huge investment in world class start through lottery, certainly compared with even 5 years ago. We already lose many players before they have reached their potnetial without lottery funding this would be even more of a problem.

People are complaining that retired players beat youngsters at the Wimbledon in the other thread today and here are calling for older players to be dropped.

The truth is we need a system with more competition at all levels and all ages of player.

[Darrenh]

In response to what has been said i do feel that there is a loop hole with regards to funding.
John Gurling is trying hard to paint a good picture of the BAOE but i no first hand that some juniors to day are not doing an awful lot to get 5-6 thousand a year just because they know the right people.
When i was playing you had to earn the right by results to get sent anywhere.
I am not suprised that Knowlsey with the talent he has won the Wimbledon and why he didnt play the singles aswell.
The players today dont know how to play and they get everything on a plate this is why they are not getting any better.
Things were much better when we could train where we wanted and we trained alot harder then than when we were moved to MK.
We were better because our training was individual.How can we improve as a nation with one or two coaches at most between say 6-10 singles players at a time.Making them play each other isnt going to work and the coaches wernt good enough to anylise what was going wrong.
I look at the top players today and the only one with talent is Andrew Smith but he needs to stay away from MK because it will ruin his game.After all they have done nothing for me.
Ps;thanks for the support.

[bikerchic]

The problem with Worls Start funding is that that could dry up at anytime and then what happens ?

I agree with what you are saying, however you say that the BAofE cantdrop HAughton as players receive money on results and future potential to win medals...how many has he won to date (out of this country) and how long do we wait in the future for some results. Surely the Under 21s have the FUTURE POTENTIAL to win medals and get results, and they have more chance of this than Colin. To say that to cut the likes of Julia and Colin would be crazy as the juniors would have nothing to aim for is in my opinion wrong..how often do our juniors get to play and train with Colin /Julia ...so what input are they putting itno the game..open it up and show the juniors that the top spot is vacant and it is there for the taking...those that really want it will train their butts off to achieve it. The comment with the Wimbledon results isn't that older players were beating the juniors, it was that two ex-internationals (and one of them not recognised as a singles player) could beat our top juniors.....

[dlp]

If you dropped Haughton/Mann and then we failed at Surdiman/Thomas cup due to weak team we would receive even less funding.

You can't drop players who are ranked 1 anyway unless theres a problem

Everyone needs to be pushed by those around them, if you take off Haughton then Ghaffar has no one to aim for so his level suffers and so on down the chain.

Who did Knowles/Waterman beat at Wimbledon?

[Darrenh]

D Peterson,
A Ghaffer has the world to take on just like we all had to when we were playing.But thats the problem today,if amir is just looking at the top in England he will never make it.Why do you think A Smith has made a big impact now,because he has set his sites on the world scene and not on England.A year ago he was being laughed at by english players yet now after being around the top players in the world and obviously watching them play he is now reaping the rewards just like we used to.

[bikerchic]

Do we really expect HAughton / Mann to win any significant matches at the Sudiman Cup etc ec ..no because on past performances they haven't..I would suggest that we field our potential players in games we know we are going to lose and give them some experience...what is the difference between HAughton playing no 1 singles and Andrew Smith...nothing on the results both will lose, yet Smith will gain masses of experience....Julia Mann was recently asked that a a team event if she wasn't picked to play the singles what would she do...answer...go home...where is the support for your team and up and coming hopefuls...this is the trend we need to get out of.

[Darrenh]

Smith might benfit from this but i dont know if Tracy Haalam would though,shes not that much younger than Haughton.

[skr]

Biker Chic. I'm sure the likes of Andrew Smith and Co. are gaining plenty of valuable experience playing international tournaments. However, when it comes to giving them a place in 'games we know we are going to lose' I disagree. To represent your country is the pinnacle in sport and you should have to earn your cap by being the best player/pair your country can put forward; particulalry at the Thomas/Sudiman cup where you have to be positive and field your strongest team. Better to give the lad a match in the upcoming friendly series against Holland not at Thomas/Sudiman.

[bikerchic]

Tracey Hallam would be a good start...at the moment she is getting results so to pull her out wouldn't be good..but there could be a good under 19/21 player who could be playing second fiddle and gaining the experience...I think Colin has a few years on Tracey at the moment, although Tracey acknowledges she's only got a couple of years left...TRacey I know is also very keen to train with youth players and is very down to earth and doesn't have the typical arrogance and snobbery that we see so much of today.

[bikerchic]

I agree Simon..but is Andrew going to get called up..I doubt it.

[dlp]

I see a lot of keen people on here with particular players they support, but little coherent comment on how the system could be run better. Smith was picked for the Worlds, suggesting that if a young player shows the required level they will be included. I don't suggest that Hallam / Mann / Haughton would win against top asian oppostion but often in team events it comes down to beating Germany, Sweden,Holland for second place in Europe, and Haughton is still valuable in that role.

Of course Ghaffar etc are looking beyond England, but without sparring it is difficult to reach the higher levels. I am sure the improved performnce this year by Clark/Robertson has been aided by the indonesians at mk and Robertson playing top badminton in denmark. Instead of looking for players to step aside we should be looking for upcoming players to overtake them. It could just as easily be argued that Darren Hall should have been sidelined at the age of 30, but would that really have helped the standard in Uk, I doubt it!

If you know of a good another under 19/21 who would play at top intenrational level right now I would be shocked. Rice, Honey, Kidd played at a Danish Grand Prix a couple of weeks ago and made no impact, and thats without the top 5/6 Danes who they would be facing if thrown into international 5 star events.

In short, I'm all for giving younger players more opportunity to move up, challenge etc but to think removing older better players will produce new champions is overly simplistic, the top countries are ahead precisely because the competition is so tough and the bank of players to overtake so deep.

[johng]

The problem here is that we do not know exactly what the policy IS regarding performance and rewards, and it is unlikely that the powers that be will deem it 'worthwhile' explaining it to us, perhaps darren you could tell us what the situation was when you were in the squads (incidentally I think it was a huge mistake for the BAofE not to take you straight into the coaching setup).

Apparently, or so I was informed, a couple of years ago the players were told that they would have to start winning European tournaments before they were allowed to enter far easten ones..if so, this was clearly a step in the right direction. Don't know if this is still the situation today, neither do I know if it applied to ALL players, or just the up and coming ones.

From comments made at the worlds by one of the national coaches, it does seem as if there is a lack of the hard work ethos by some players, perhaps if they worked as hard as darren they might get somewhere.

Clearly something is not quite right with the current set up...how is it that we seem to have so much european success at under 15, 17 7 19 levels..but very litle at full international level.

Without wishing to harp back to an earlier thread...it seems that general theme running through these posts is simply one of wondering what the various policies are...a simple explanation from MK would go a long way to helping out

I don't really care if these explanations are posted here or on the BAofE site....anywhere is better than nowhere.....

I have to say that the reluctance to explain decisions made, be it on team selection, squad selection or even general policy matters is most frustrating....and please note ..I used the word 'explain'...not 'justify' as soom would have it.

Is it not slightly bizzare that Clive Woodward gives a briefing regarding team selection for the Rugby World Cup, Sven chats on National News programmes as to why he selects player A over player B for Euro 2004 qualifiers..Even The England Cricket selectors answer questions, but for some reasons we hear nothing from MK.

Incidentally could Badders.com tell us if they have recieved the answers from the BAofE yet, I cannot see it mentioned anywhere on the site

[Site Support]

John, we had already covered this on a previous thread, but was lost when we had our data loss on 'black monday' :o(

After sending off the questions to Stephen, Jonathan Phillips received this reply:

---------------------
Dear Jonathan,

Thank you for taking the time to compile this list.

Please suggest to your members that if they have questions for the BAofE, they should email me.

Kind regards

Stephen
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[freddiestrangeways]

It seems nonsense that the top players get larger funding (I wasn't aware this was the case). Surely it's the younger, lower rated players who need the funding to develop further?

What also bugs me is how players are left to rot once they decide to stop playing. After years and years of loyal service and coaching to their sport and country, they are simply tossed aside and forgotten about.

[Morrissey]

And what money they do spend on the youngsters is wasted. Did you see the performances put in at teh Wimbledon open last weekend?

I know I said it in another thread but the ex-Internationals played them off the court, just look at the mens doubles final. Discussing where funding goes is pointless if it's being spent unwisely.

Do the BAofE publish statements of where they spend and/or what they fund?

[johng]

Site support.......sorry but what does that mean....are you saying that you have received answers and that they were lost on black monday........or that the response to jonathon is the only one received

[Lemon]

How can you keep praising Andrew Smith.
This is a player who was constantly refusing to play for England. He turned down the World Juniors last year.
Why? because he did not want to be beaten by a top junior, this would show him for what he really is. By the way he is on funding, he is on futures - whats that £5,000 a year!!!!
Giving to someone who won't represent their country at junior level.

[Site Support]

John,

Jonathan Phillips is one of the site owners and he sent all the questions to Stephen on behalf of Badders.com...the earlier post was the reply received via email.

[stuartwardell]

[BillyBudd]

I think you have a point Lemon. It is obviously nice to travel the world and play against the top players, learning as you go, however, it is also good for the younger players to play tournaments where they are expected to win. It is easy to lose first round in most tournaments picking up points here and there and getting a reasonable world ranking. If you play enough events you will eventually win a game sooner or later, but I haven't seen Smith pick up a noticable scalp yet. I am not doubting that he is a good player, with the potential to make it, but I feel he would benefit from playing a few tournaments in which he is expected to win,lets see how he handles the pressure. If he plays the EBU events he would have to play aginst similar standard players and learn how to win matches, this is a nice habit to get into. Why travel the world to lose 1st round every week, what is the use of that?

That goes for all the up and coming players. Learn how to win in the smaller events and then test yourself with the big boys!

[Morrissey]

Things have been bad but now it's 12 years on Billy Budd. You'd of thought times would have changed by now!

[bikerchic]

Lemon Squash !!!! Let's not get hung up on names I was only giving Smith as an examaple..other names have been mentioned on this threa already...what about Andrew South...he's had a couple of decent results already.

With comments made about team events and the idea of committing badminton suicide by throwing in youth in the singles spots..I'll think you will probably find that the selectors are banking on winning doubles (all 3) and if we pick up a singles result then a bonus..in mathces of 5 games, if England won all the doubles (which we usually do with the European nations) then the match can be won 3-2. There are alot of Asian singles players now playing for other European countries..Sweden, France, Holland etc etc so those singles matches are even more tougher; perhaps for the future of English badminton we should concede that from a singles point of view we are under performing and look at our future stars ?

[Lemon]

We might just as well give up completely on the singles, both men and ladies and concerntrate on doubles. We have done well in both mixed and level doubles in years gone by, and at the the moment there are no signs of things changing for the future. We have a couple of youngsters that at quite good but they can never match the eastern countries. Give up England on singles. Go for doubles training at Milton Keynes with the seniors and give our boys and girls a chance.