Problems with the service

[Steved]

Whenever Badminton players meet in a match or a tournament the problem of the fault service always comes up for discussion and becomes a matter of conflict. It happened again at the Vets Inter-counties playoff on 12thJanuary at Epsom. If players gain an advantage with a fault service this is clearly against the spirit of the game. However there is often a misunderstanding of what constitutes a fault because most players do not deliberately cheat. So lets just clarify what the rules are.
If you go into ‘Stuff’, click on The Rules then click on www.INTERBADFED.org/Laws.html it takes you to the laws of Badminton. Under Service there is a sketch which shows what constitutes a correct service and what is a fault. Take a look!
9. SERVICE
9.1 In a correct service:
9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server's waist at the instant of being hit by the server's racket; ( The problem here is the definition of where is the servers waist. It always used to be defined as level with the lower rib but I gather now that this is in contention. Can anyone shed any light on this?)
9.1.6 the shaft of the server's racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction to such an extent that the whole of the head of the racket is discernibly below the whole of the server's hand holding the racket as in Diagram D. (The main problem here is that many players commence in this position but by the time they hit the shuttle they have rolled the wrist such that the racquet head is not discernibly below the hand)
9.1.7 the movement of the server's racket must continue forwards after the start of the service (Law 9.4) until the service is delivered. and
9.4 Once the players have taken their positions, the first forward movement of the server's racket head is the start of the service. (Many players extend the shuttle and then present the racquet in a forward motion until they touch it. They then draw the racquet back and serve. This is a fault)

[mcripp]

To my mind this is the single biggest problem in league play. I feel sure I know who Steve is talking about regarding the veterans. This individual was told about it last year by one of the Hampshire players. The offender acted suprised then, but he has always done it. With Val Andrews in attendance it might have been an idea to have mentioned it to her as she is an IBF umpire. There are a number of players in the Aldershot league who are guilty of the same thing. One person has even been told by a number of players from his own club but will not accept it and it is actually one of the worst ones that I have seen. The trouble is how do you overcome the problem. You can stand there all night saying they are foul serving and they stand there saying they are not. I suppose one way is to foul serve against them until they get the message!

[Geof]

Could an umpire/s be nominated to a league? This umpire to then randomly visit matches to ensure compliance to service regulations.This would also prevent any disputes between the teams ?

[mcripp]

Playing in the Aldershot league is one of England's top IBF umpires ie Jane Hancock, maybe she would have some views on the matter.

[rachyuk]

I certainly think having an official to call upon, who is qualified to judge a service fault would be a great idea.

But, when playing at good club level - who is going to make a call on a service that is consistently illegal? I certainly wouldn't envoke an argument about an illegal service on court. To this day I haven't complained about someone's serve, yet I've endured many an illegal serve!!!!

[c5093780]

In reaction to Steve Darlinton's question about the definition of where
the server's waist is, I can say that the definition which he gives still
holds and is not in contention.

In reaction to Geof's Taylor's suggestion I should say that I am not so sure that nominating an official to visit league ties at random
would solve this problem effectively.
In my country (nl) we work with a system of league referees for the three lower divisions of the national league.
All clubs playing in the national league have to provide licenced
referees trained by the BA. These officials are nominated as referee
for league ties in divisions 3, 4 and 5 of the national league.
All matches in the top two divisions are umpired by official umpires.

Presently the matches in the regional leagues are not being officiated
at all, but some regions are thinking of also starting a league referee
systeem. Maybe this could also be an idea for your league.

I agree with Rachel that envoking an argument about illegal service
is not the thing to do.

[ipocock]

It does strike me that the biggest problem with the service rules is that serevice judges struggle with the interpreation of waistline and angle of the racket head.

Different service judges seem to have wildly differing views.

I have played in matches where the pair I was playing against were constantly being faulted by one service judge and then in the next game not faulted at all.

There seemed to be no difference in their service action, so I was somewhat perplexed.

I certainly think that the rules need to be overhauled in order to make it much clearer.

[MarkAllen]

I'm responding to Ian Pocock's last posting. I'm an umpire, if you didn't already know, so just a few comments.

First, service judging isn't easy. Six distinct service errors have to be monitored & recognised in a very short space of time.

Secondly, the service judge sits where they do for good reason. It is the best place to see from. You cannot correctly observe the serve from a standing position.

Third, there can be a marginal difference between a fault serve & a good one. The pair you played against may have made sufficient correction to their action(s) from one game to the next, in response to being faulted, to have become good.

That's all for now folks!

[rachyuk]

I have re-read this thread and I can see that in an environment that requires match officials, monitoring the service is expected.

What happens in the leagues/club levels, when you are playing a good club standard and are facing faulty serving. Who do you call on then?...I like Geof's idea of having an allocated Umpire to call upon, but after the event it's a bit difficult to go back and replay those points.

I do tend to err on the side of caution if I am facing an illegal service, I tend not to call it...I take my time, perhaps take a step back if I know the serve is going to come fast and flat at me and prepare myself. After the first few, you get to find a way round the serve, if the game hasn't already ended.

I appreciate when you are playing in the presence of a coach or match official, 'dodgy service' can be easily spotted...but in the clubs it's just 'your word against mine, mate' - I can't remember who said it, but it's stuck with me..."the only person qualified to 'call' a serve faulty, is a qualified service judge/official."

Who at club level is qualified to make a 'call' on the serve?

I am fortunate as in my club there are lots of players who play in National/County matches and knowing this keeps you on your toes!!!

[ipocock]

Don't mean to criticise umpires and service judges. Just meant that i think there is currently too much of a grey area open to interpretation.

I appreciate the difficulties for umpiring but maybe something could be done to make it clearer for all concerned.

[Luncheon]

I hate it when the opposition fault serve. But if you know its not going to put either yourself or your partner off, i find if you say something like "You want to lower that serve it seems a little flat" with a sort of friendly smile on your face, the opponant might get slightly annoyed but he/she will start to think more about the service action rather than where they are going to put it. So all going well you get a lower serve and a slight advantage. But don't do it to some big bloke that would probably eat you alive if you upset him!!!

[rachyuk]

When you think about it, a lot of the rules and reg's we use today were first established decades ago.

We interpret them with today's thinking and expect them to work for us.

I think the IBF are starting to look into 'upgrading the sport'. Are they looking into the right areas though? Or is the 'Service' something of a can of worms that will be argued for the next 50 odd decades?

Is there something that can actually be done about 'foul serving' - look at the Tennis service, nothing is left to 'interpretation'...the action of course is very different (to some badminton players I've seen foul serving, it's NOT that different ;0)...)

Perhpas we need a 'magic eye' watching that racket head!

[Tracy]

If someone is not getting too much of an advantage, a foul serve does not worry me too much - it's when someone powers the shuttle up the middle line with the racket noticeably above the waist, and gets more than a point or two that really gets me!
In these situations, it can be the winning/losing factor in the game - & that's unfair.
In a similar vein, there is much discussion about people addressing the shuttle twice. Some people become very heated about this. However, if someone does this, but they do it every time they serve, it is not an 'advantage' in any way - it doesn't worry me as I do not see the point in arguing over issues that do not affect the actual outcome of the game.

[rachyuk]

The 'second address' business is quite bizarre really...I almost feel I have to 'second receive' aswell...before you know it, you've got 'Riverdance' going off all over the court...bit of serving...some receiving, "sorry, were you ready?"...."can I just take that serve again?"

It looks so uncomfortable to me, addressing the shuttle twice...

[Geof]

I suppose a league procedure could be introduced ?
A team captain could inform the opposing captain that he has concerns over a players serve and will be asking for the league umpire to inspect. If the league umpire recieves complaints from more than one team captain ,this would trigger the inspection.It would be a bit late however if you had lost a match due to having fifteen services driven past you.

[redkingjoe]

the service thingy is really troublesome.

last week, i watched my son playing some casual double competing with friends in the club. like all kids, when playing they were very happy talking about this and that...digitmons...soap opera...untill there were unresolved agruements on one of the serve...interpretation of waistline....went on and on

[rhombus]

The Sidek serve became common place in the 1980 's because it was felt that the server had little advantage when serving. However some of the ordinary club and county players had such fantastic slice services that the opposite became true and it was later banned. Having played county matches for many years I have seen the progression of foul servicing until it is nearly endemic in every match that I watch or play. It is definitely a form of cheating that can easily with humour be put into place. In a match years ago, a player who had a reputation for foul serving, kept foul serving to me. My partner who was an experienced local coach told me not to worry and that he would sort it out. He kindly asked the chap to lower his serve. This chap took exception and told us that he had never been called before... a blatant lie. We got the serve back and my partner served to this chap in the style of a Tennis serve. The opponent was flabbergasted and predictably called his serve. My partner went to the net and quite amicably told him that he knew it was a foul serve but he was better at it than he was. His partner laughed, the players watching laughed and eventually the foul server laughed. He also lowered his serve for the rest of the game.
In those days the majority of people served forehand and backhand serves were rare. Now the opposite is true. The most common fault I see with the backhand service is that before contact the racket is below the waist, but at contact the racket is raised and a fault ensues. Forehand serves that were foul were easier to see and call.
I don't know what the solution is to allow the server more advantage, but until that happens players will
flout the laws until called

[Back on]

Another umpire's comments. Just to prove how cofusing things are, several of the posts in this thread are mentioning the racket in conjunction with the waist - refer back to Trevor's original posting, the racket or some part of it can be above the waist, it is the whole of the shuttle which must be below.

As to umpires being "attached" to local leagues, I have offered. Good job I didn't hold my breath waiting for the first reply!!