rajiv ouseph? what are your feelings towards him?

[babolat]

i think rajiv ouseph is a very consistent player who can bore players off the court. Is net play is amazing and his cut half smashes are one of his best shots. his laid back view to the game allows him to conserve his energy and also his consistency, reaction off shots and his deceptions tires his opponents. i think his one let down is his relaxed look on court. i think that when he comes up against the top players in the world he will struggle, dont u agree? rajiv is a great player but does he have what it takes to beat the Chinese?

[johng]

has anybody

[richdoling]

Dont think he wants it enough.
If you look at what the chinese are doing when they are his age no comparison with the comitment of training and thats why we as a nation will never compete against the world class players of today.

[sponsford]

What happened to Richard Doling's opinion about Rajiv. It was a very accurate picture of Rajiv. Eventhough Rajiv is a greatly talented player he is not showing the hunger to improve his game of singles. He is very laid back and a very slow starter. May be his coach Steve Butler can help him to improve his body language and make him a tiger player who can handle far eastern shutlers. But like Mr.Doling said this boy needs to work very hard to achieve this. As a coach probably Mr.Doling noticed that straight away.
I rate him as a top English player and his recent victory over Toby Honey in the Wimbledon Challenger proves that point. Good Luck to you Rajiv.

[Site Support]

'Steve'...all duplicitous posts are removed and unfortunately this was one of them.

[southernmonkey]

For me Raj is a talented youngster there is no question of that but for me hes a disaster waiting to happen.
Butler doesnt get to see him that much but the cell coach that he goes to has to start putting the pressure on him to change his game.This so far isnt happening and when he gets out of juniors hes not going to make it playing like he does.
Once again the the employed coaches of the BAOE dont seem to want to tell these kids to get there A**Es in gear,they dont want to rock the boat with these players just in case they leave and it would reflect badly on there coaching reputation.

[DennisNielsen]

I saw Rajiv at the wimbledon open, he is a talented player who seems to have it all. He has the shots, when he gets a little stronger he will be murder to play! He looks to be our best hope

[Dave]

Maybe he doesn't WANT to get his arse into gear.

Not sure if Rajiv looks at Badders, maybe Joe can enlighten us?

[southernmonkey]

Thats my point David,and if that is the case then why are we investing money into him.
I also think its a shame that he has not got a private coach to tell him what hes doing wrong because at the moment he does what he wants.
This however is working at the moment but at his age he needs some guidence.

[tomdunlop]

i don't know why your all callin raj! southern monkey, wot r u on about? i watched him play the u18 no.1 chinese player in sweden a couple of weeks ago and gave him a good game! he sees butler at least once a week so dont start tellin us to get our a***s in gear!!!!!

[southernmonkey]

Stop the press tom,so are you telling me that our no1 hopefull is getting once a week with Butler and sometimes hits with Jason large in his cell playing SIX against ONE being taught to take it late everywhere?
Christ,those europeans and the Chinese most be quaking in there boots.
My point is still that start get some results outside England and then we might respect your views,and as you said Raj gave him a good game well thanks for that information but hes not the first person on the planet to have a good game against a chinese player but still loose.
I think though hes a good player but he doesn't show any changes in his game.

[gurner]

Erm... Last time i looked southern monkey Tom was the Lagenfeld U19 singles champion. Does that count as a result outside England, not bad to say he is still U17 (it was on the BAofE website about a month ago)! So maybe we should respect his views.
Raj is deceptively quick because of two reasons:
1. He reads the game very well
2. He has very fast reactions and sees it early.
How the hell do you know what training Raj does and whether he works hard or not? Are you there watching or maybe your his coach!

[southernmonkey]

Rob try not to sound is as if you are talking to peole as if they are dumb,evryone knows that Lagenfeld is weak and no one goes to it.Try asking most decent players this.
However i agree Raj does read the game well this is his best attribute and you dont have to be watching him trainig to realise the coaches need to try and make him have an alternative game plan.The last time i saw him play he nearly sent the audience to sleep let alone his opponent and thats not being rude its a fact.

[hello1]

i have to agree with souther monkey, i have also heard that langenfeld was weak. if it wasn't weak then an under 17 wouldn't win the under 19 event. plus wouldn't raj be there, and if he was tom wouldn't of had a chance and if raj was there and was knocked out then tom would of got slaughtered. not saying tom is a bad player, he is very good but raj is far better. i also saw raj play at the wimbledon challenger and he nearly sent me to sleep!

[sponsford]

Did Rajiv play his county restricted?
How did he do against A.Gaffar? Does anyone know the results?

[southernmonkey]

Please tell me if iam wrong but let me guess the answer to steves Question.
Ghaffer didnt play?

[IanRoss]

Amir was in Denmark and Raj was training with the BA - so neither played.

[southernmonkey]

WHAT Amir got to the finals of the Danish ,bloody hell?
Well i pressume that he didnt but normally all the players change there flights when they have been knocked out early,strange that he didnt.
Raj training,well that just sums up what the BAOE think of the county Restricted.

[tomdunlop]

southern monkey u don't know anythin about raj's game and anythin about junior badminton!! don't start callin tournaments that u don't know nothin about!! who are you? cause u haven't revealed your great mystery name! n by the way i won the lancashire senior restricted singles and doubles! does that count as a result for u?

[jtboy]

I agree with Tom on this one. Fair enough, you are entitled to you opinions, but do you really think with a name like 'Southern Monkey' that your views will be accepted?

Also, give Raj a break. As one of our countries best Juniors, we should support him fully. If a player wishes to train rather than play in a tournament, its their choice. At least their game will improve!

Finally, well done to Tom with the Lancashire Senior Restricted! A fantastic achievement.

[skibadee]

why u cum upto raj finkin ur da biiiiiig man mr southern monkey?
But ur achuly just a little small boiy

dyu get me?

[skibadee]

hey mr southern monkey

sort it out man. u sayin bad stuff stuff bout him nd u probably dont know wot u talkin bout. i bet raj would absolutely destroy u in a normal game

[stinky]

You've no idea who Southern Monkey is do you Barry? Perhaps you shouldn't go shouting your mouth off?

Lets keep this conversation badminton orientated please!

[skibadee]

yeah great name mate
u keep tellin me that

[hello2]

southern monkey has all the right to talk in that way. when he was playing he was tearing apart top players. you can't say he's a boy, he was a top player who would beat raj. and winning a restricted isnt really a tournament outside of england tom as that's what southern monkey stipulated

[stinky]

I'll tell you what I want to tell you, not what you tell me to tell you.

Great name yourself. Couldn't you think up anythign better?

Nicely summarised BABOLAT BOY. Southern Monkey showed his stuff at the weekend, say no more.

[hello2]

thankyou! im just talking my mind. he tore things up at the weekend. if he wasn't injured he would have won the singles equalling tom's restricted status

[skibadee]

why dont u tell me who this southern monkey character is then. Then i can cast my own opinion on what i think he can say about rajiv

[skibadee]

why dont u tell me who this southern monkey character is then. Then i can cast my own opinion on what i think he can say about rajiv

[hello2]

see that would be telling and i told southern monkey i wouldn't say his name over here. im sure he doesnt want his name spread around this site and england at that.

[stinky]

echo echo ... doesn't matter how many times you say it Barry Bothered, it still makes no sense.

Southern Monkey is unbelievable ... I can only think of ONE person who could take him on and give him a run for his money. You know who I mean BABOLAT? ;)

[Tito]

Site support, please get rid of these idiots!!!

[skibadee]

see u dont know who i am do you
so how can u say dat
maybe in my time i could take him on
i dont think there would be any competition

[southernmonkey]

Tom well done you beat Colin Haughton and michael Edge and Ian Palethorpe this weekend i take it all back i hope to see you at the elite wapping players up.

[freddiestrangeness]

He's one to watch out for 'when his time comes'. I think you should appologise and stand down Southern Monkey. Unlike you to be the dominant one. Do that or just call him a w****r and get it all over and done with.

Why does Poor Freddie get blocked so much? If it's because I'm of a mediterranean appearance I'm not going to be best pleased.

[Jamesblond]

Somebody tell me - who is this guy Raj ?

Serious question. A short storyline please!

[Khalid]

I've seen Raj play and I think hes very talented and tricky. He would give any player in England a run for their money.

I think the point SM is trying to make is that his style of play may be effective at this level, but takeing it to the next level up may require some adaptation.

I am no expert but I suspect thats an issue we are all faced with when we move up a level in this game i.e to what extent will our current style of play adapt and what do we need to change/add to our skill sets.

Congratulations Tom on winning the Lancashire restricted, and hopefully you will stick with the game into senior/international level.

[Michael Banks]

James - info on Raj

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Ousephs_Badminton/index.jhtml

[southernmonkey]

Jamie,read what i have put before making stupid points.
Ive not said that Raj is useless but that he needs to start changing his game otherwise he will end up like so many of talented players of the past.
Please dont forget that this country has seen loads of talented players and hes not the only one.

[nikolai]

i would like to know what SM would feel is necessary for rajiv to improve as a player and how he thinks raj could compete against the asians

[sponsford]

Does anyone (which includes coaches and the past top players like D.Hall, S.Butler, S.Baddley, M.Dew-Hatten and so on)think that the current top under 18/19 players should give up education and take up full time badminton to become world class players? What do they do in far eastern countries once they identify some great talent?
Is there any Asian players out there can answer what is the next step to achieve this. It looks like BA of E doesn't know the way forward. At the moment there are quite a few good juniors coming up according to Rajiv's article in last issue of the Badminton Magazine.

[SylviaPenn]

I think that in this country it is more up to the individual player to decide where their future in badminton lies and not so much the BAofE. Most seem to opt to further their education as they have to think about their financial future as only very few make a good living out of badminton and most wont take the risk.

I have known Raj for many years and seen his style of play critised but he gets very good results despite the critisism. Go on Raj - you show em!

[Debbie]

I was attending a seminar a few years ago when Lee Jae Bok did a coaching session. He talked about some players having a '3rd eye'. I think Raj has this-such an awareness of where he is on the court and with wonderful racquet skills. I've also known him for many years and seen him grow taller and taller.....and get better and better!!

[bikerchic]

That's fine and if he is 19, so a few years ago would be classed as a senior, why is he still behind the likes of Danny Plant and Paul Hindley in the English rankings !!! No disrespect to Paul & Danny but these two had their day years ago and weren't real top flight if raj is going to be the man of the future at his age surely he should be way above these boys now !

[GordonSim]

I fear that much of these postings are misinformed. England appears to have a 17 year old youngster who at the moment is the best in Europe at his age. The instigator of this post and some of his fellows seem determined to whip up a fervour over "his playing style" and the fact he is not taking out various senior players. This is abject nonsense of the first degree and an anlysis of how long it took many of todays top players to break into World Class badminton might assist them. In todays game it may take a junior player several years to realise his senior potential and they deserve peoples support particularly if they are achieving Rajiv Ouseph's results. In my opinion England seem to have an extremely promising group of juniors in development in fact probably the best in Europe at u.19 and u.17 at present. It would help if many of the wannabee coaches and knowledgeable world experts did not hide behind false names and put their credentials up front for everyone to see. I am sure Rajiv Ouseph and others would happily take them onto a court and show them just how far their views are removed from reality!

[bikerchic]

I'd be happy with that, I need a good excuse to get my rackets out of the loft..anyway its hands on experience that gives me MY opionion..take for example MArk Constable best in his age group and 2 years above all through his junior career, coached by the same Steve Butler, as a junior was well in the top ten senior rankings and now what...oh and he gave up education at 16 to concerntrate on badders...apart from the education side is there any similarities between Mark and Raj....and OK I might hide behind a false name (who cares)but at least I have filled in my profile and do have years of playing / international experience...after all everyone can have their own opionion....

[southernmonkey]

Agreed Biker,Gorden i think you will understand that we have seen talent like Raj before,another was Steffen Pandya who was good in the year above in Europe who also just gave up.
Iam not negative about Raj but concerned that hes not getting the right advise.
To me when watching him play he seems to play how he wants and there is no modification in his game.I would like to see him listen more to a coach and for them to guide him in the right moves,however i only see coaches pussy foot around him because at the end of the day he gets results.
Baoe,pay Darren Hall to take him on and give him guidence i think he needs it from someone he respects.

[sponsford]

I agree with you Southern. These juniors needs to be guided and coached by somebody whom they respect. Darren Hall will be the right choice if he is willing to help these kids. And also I think these boys and girls should be asked to play all the EBU tournaments whenever it is possible not the local under19 Tournaments between themselves. So that they will be exposed to other top players in Europe. Once they lose to these players then they will know that they have to train hard to get to the top.

[bikerchic]

Steve I agree...although my understanding of the Darren situation was that the BAofE didn't want to take him on..instead they have Steve Butler..who did what ?? Never won a National title and did nothing major on the international scene..what hope have the juniors got when they are given (in comparison to Darren) second best...send Raj and the other off on the EBU circuit then lets have this discussion next year...if they are still playing

[viceast]

there is a very simple way of finding out if this lad Raj is good enough. sick him in against players supposedly better and see if he survives. why not stick him in against holland in the forthcoming international series.
i don't personally know him,how old is he? if he is 19 then he should be beating the Hinder's of this world.
I agree with southern monkey we've seen these kids come and go over the years, but at 19 you must know if you want to become a pro, if you don't then get out of the game.
Let me know the next tournament he is playing in.

[Luncheon]

at 19 you must know if you want to become a pro, if you don't then get out of the game

Sorry Vic, you saying that if you don't want to become a pro, you shouldn't play anymore?

What do you mean by get out of the game?

[dlp]

Vic since a player needs to play eight ten ranking events to achieve a ranking it is hardly surprising that an under 17 does not achieve a high senior ranking. Given that Raj will play domestic and international under 17 and 19 team and individual plus senior grand prix, nationals and ebu events I am glad to see he isn't also playing lots of satelites and challnegers to boost his ranking. Looking at his performances against top ten players recently he is certainly worthy of a higher ranking.

Biker, your arguement is that because Darren Hall was a more successful player than Steve Butler he would be a better coach, by extension this would mean we should never hire English coaches since invariably foreign coaches would have achieved more in the game. This is clearly nonsense.

Further Steve coached the US team for a couple of years before progressing to the English under 21 and now senior singles, any coach would be expected to follow some sort of progression of the sort. Just as if SImon Archer retired next week he wouldn't walk into the head doubles coaches job straight away if he had no coaching experence!

[viceast]

chris
what im saying is if you dont know at 19 that you want to be a pro you're not going to be one!
i have now been told that the lad is 17(is this correct?)if so he should have a good idea what he wants from his badminton. at 17 he should be pitting himself against the best in the country, then getting stuck into the foreign opposition. results will determine how long he stays in the game, if he is still climbing the reankings at 19 then good luck to him.
If he hasn't gone up by then he should get himself a proper job. Alternatively he could ask the BAofE for a coaching job, he'll probably match their criteria.

[bikerchic]

Fair point however how many foreign coaches have we got...the ladies coach is foreign and look at the success of Tracey and Kelly, perhaps if the men had a foreighn coach who performed well on the international circuit they also might get some results..I think one of the most successful times we had in mens singles was when Lee Jae Bok was about..I dont think should not hire English coaches but let them develop first and shows signs of some success elsewhere...what resutls did Butler get in the US ?? As for your comment about Archer..Archer has won so much at a top level that he ought to walk straight into a coaching job...or should we shove Archer on the shelf and pick someone who has had no results and none of the experience your arguement is daft and shows why English badders is in decline....you also talk about the number of events Raj would have to play...that's the reality of the senior game...no longer protected by the cushy number of ESBA, this is the real world and probably why so many fall at the side...the Danes do it, so do the Far Eastern players and so do our top players please dont go making excuses for him forever..let him toughen up !!! Yes even at 17 he needs to.

[viceast]

d
thanks for the response, i was looking at the latest mens singles rankings and raj had played 10 which is the same as paul hinder and nicholas kidd both of whom are higher ranked than him.
i dont mind you correcting what i said but i did base my comments on fact.
you seem to know a lot about this kid, how old is he?
perhaps you can also tell me where his next tournament is?

[dlp]

Vic Let me explain my thoughts more clearly. Since the rankings take into account results over a year in ten best events it is unlikely a 17 year old will rise quickly to the top. Firstly an upcoming youngster will not be seeded at big events or may not even qualify, Raj lost to Haughton at the nationals, he may have had a chance against any other player. Seocndly while domestic experience is important it is the progress on the international circuit which will really count, both at senior and junior level. So in terms of progress on the rankings I think he is doing fine and with results like the wimbledon challenger final he will soon move up.

Biker Chic, I am not saying that Archer wouldn't make an England coach, just that is uncommon form players to move directly form playing staff to coaching staff. I agree the womens singles and mens doubles have been great under foreign coaches recently, but a better player does not necessariy mean a better coach. Didn't Steve Baddeley himself coach abroad on retirement before returning to the baofe. I imagine it would be difficult to one day be playing/competing for team places with somebody and the next day be their coach!


I have seen many of junior players first over promoted because of initial success and then criticised later for failing to live up to the hype. Constable, South, Hardcastle and Rice were all at some point right at the top of Europe in their early years and heralded as next "the next Hall" or whatever, that sort of pressure isn't necessary until there is some tangible senior results at international level.

[sponsford]

Vic, I think he is just 17. Eventhough he is ranked 14 in England he has beaten a few higher ranked players like Toby Honey, Dan Plant, Neal White and so on. But I still support Biker's view that he needs harder games in the EBU circuit so that he can get the feel of the real badminton world, rather than messing around with under 19 ESBA Tournaments.

[viceast]

steve
thanks, i will watch his progress.
you may be correct in saying that he needs to take on foreign opposition to see if his style works.
d
come on now, we all know how the seedings work. this lad is not going to meet haughton in every competition, Colin doesn't play that many!!

[southernmonkey]

D Peterson,i would like to make the point that at 17 and being an international junior he doesnt really need someone who has 3 years coaching experience to teach him how to play a cross court slice.
After all, are you telling me that what Darren hall has done in his career he doesnt know what to do with raj because he hasnt had 3 years coaching the US team.
You forget that most of the top players of the past did it on there own, Anders and Knowlsey just had a couple of players training with them when they were good.
Raj needs to be inspired by his coach and to me hes not getting that with what he has.Iam sure that if Darren told him somethings he would listen.

[viceast]

southern monkey & biker chic
good to see that we have similar views on how to get youngsters "on the up".
interesting point about coaches and not having coaches.it all depends on the individual, but if you are going to make it through the BAofE "minefield" you have to have someone fighting your corner.
i know from experience that the higher you go the more flak you'll encounter from the MK mafia.
sounds like you two have similar experiences.

[dlp]

I don't think I mentioned anything about needing 3 years coaching experience or teaching shots.

I simply pointed out that Butler had coached the US team and gained experience there and coached the under 21s, so to say that Darren Hall would be a better coach simply on the basis that ten years ago he had the edge over Butler as a player is nonsense.

I am sure Darren Hall would be an excellent coach but anyone needs to gain experience in coaching.

I never said that Raj would play Haughton in every event, simply that it takes a couple of years to achieve a realistic ranking, since without lucky draws players may face seeds in the first round sometimes, greatly lowering their average points, further, entry to challengers and nationals is dependant on previous results and since it is necessary to play those events to obtain the higher ranking points a couple of seasons are required.

[bikerchic]

D..at 17 if a player is going to make a success of things then they need to be in the top ten senior rankings...ALison Humby at 17 was in the top 5, I managed top ten before 18, Mark COnstable was in the top ten before he was 18...ok ALison doesn't play anymore but that was down to injury, I dont play but I simply chose not to live and breathe Wimbledon and get an education (I was sidelined by that) and MArk pass I dont know what he's up to...but there are others about that were top flight before the end of their junior days (and that was in the old days when you were 18). I dont know Raj but has he got that x-factor, that something special and inspiring that hand-in-hand with results will make him great ??? Colin Haughton doesn't have it that's why he doesn't get international results...Julia Mann doesn't have it...Steve Butler NEVER had it...Darren Hall did... and like Vic stated you need more of a mentor than a coach at top flight and I'd have Darren with his drive and flair anyday of the week rather than Steve with the dullness that comes with it....I also beg to differ Darren does not need to gain caoching experience to have success with the English lot...and Steve Baddley OK he went off to Switzerland to coach (money was bloody good) but he came back to the BAofE as a thinker (Chief Ex) not a coach...what a shame !!!

[dlp]

I would like to see Hall involved with coaching some of the players. Certainly the under 21 or a performance centre. As usual his retirement and the baofe's failure to find a place for him was handled badly in the press. I just don't think it fair to say he should have got the mens singles coach job ahead of Butler.

For sure in womens singles a good junior would make the top ten. In general few women are playing enough events to get good ranking points.

If you look at Raj's recent form winning the under 19 nationals, winning in europe at u17, performing well at the senior nationals against Huaghton, winning the herts satellite and runner up in the winbledon challenger I would say these are all measures of his performance and his domestic ranking is of little concern. Many have peaked at 18, we need players to continue improving through to their early twenties. Some players have the physical development at 16, others don't, regardless of training.

[southernmonkey]

D you are still missing the point,forget Butlers situation but are you telling me that Darren needs to get coaching experience before he starts coaching.
We are not asking him to teach someone how to hold the grip but to bring on the top youngsters who at the moment are listening to a women who runs the U19s who never achieved anything near Darrens potential.
Are you saying that he has less to offer than her when teaching Englands top juniors.
Please stop confusing the issue Darren wasnt asking for a job in a local lesuire centre where everybody there needs help technically,if that were the case then i would understand why you are saying that he needs experience however he trained to be one of the best in the world in his time and he should have been allowed to teach these boys and girls how he he trained to make it.I think hes more than qualified for the job even without a coaching badge.

[GeorgeFrith]

I am reminded of something a certain Lee Jae Bok told me in 1995 - "How can you tell someone what the view is from the top of the mountain when you have not been there yourself?".

Enough said.

[TonyBear]

'cos I watch satellite TV !

[dlp]

Don't think I mentioned technique or coaching badges, I simply said that to suggest that player A should upon retirement go straight into the national coaches job instead of player B who has been coaching for ten years because when they both played ten years ago player A was the better player makes no sense. If any player upon retirment and entering coaching does not learn and improve their coaching in the first five years I would be shocked.

Coaching is not about just the on court playing standard, it is man management ,teaching, politics, paperwork, selection, budgets, team work etc, none of which are part of being a successful player. All of these aspects I would suggest a player, however good would improve with experience of coaching.

George, if the only people who can coach at that level are those who have done it then clearly no Englishman fits the bill if we aspire to world class singles in the modern game.

On the one hand baofe are criticised for giving Justine the under 19 job with no experience, at the same time they are criticised for not giving Hall an even bigger job!

[southernmonkey]

No D,as i said three posts before forget Butlers role ,give Darren Justins role and then get him the experience you think he needs.
The role that Justin has is perfect for Darren,there are some youngsters in England who need his Knowledge and experience and iam sure he can right out paper work given the chance.
However this is what is wrong with the English game,we are more concerned with a badge and then the experience with a badge.
To lose Darren must make us the biggest idiots in the world and other countries must be laughing there heads off.I bet another country would have Darren looking afer there young players if he wanted to move.

[Tito]

Look at Hendrawan; upon his announcement to retire, the Indonesian Badminton Association have asked him to work with their juniors. I wonder why and there seems to be no mention of his qualification badges. Darren Hall's experience must count for something!

[johng]

From all the reports I have heard, Justine is doing a very good job, both on court and in the office.

And whilst I accept that in general players tend to respect ex players, one of the reasons that Park Joo Bong left was because he was not respected by some of the senior players, so respect is not always 'a given'

If Darren did turn out to be good at putting his experience across, and could relate to the younger players then all well and good, but who knows if he would have been capable of doing the job.

Incidentally it seems strange to question Steve Butlers position when we are achieving good results at Junior level

[Lemon]

Yer go for it Southern Monkey.
Didnt Darren Hall coach at an Essex venue for a year or two. I seem to recall he was coaching Simon Hardcastle, Joel Gayle, Caroline Westley and Rachel Howard. Didnt do a bad job there eh.

[SUPERTED]

To not make use of darren would be a huge mistake,his experience of the modern game at the top level would make him a vital resource for the ba of e. He was well respected as a player and i believe he would be as a coach aswell (if he isn`t already).

[cowan]

i thought this thread was about rajiv ouseph, now we are all discussing darren hall for an england coaching job.
my sources reveal that dh was very keen to be involved, and still is, but the right offer has not come along. i personally think this is a disgrace and typical baofe blinkered thinking.
going back to rajiv i think we are being a bit hard on steve butler, ok he hasn't got the charisma of dh but he was a very fit and determined player who played to the best of his talent.maybe he was around at the wrong time but be fair he was a hell of a lot better than what we have at the minute.
let's see what he acheives with rajiv over the next twelve months.

[sponsford]

I agree with you Michael. Let us see how this juniors progress under Steve Butler.May be in a couple of years time we will know. Butler has done a great job so far with under 19s winning European Tournaments. But if Darren Hall also comes in as M.K based elite singles coach it will be fantastic.
Also I would like to mention another great coach/ex player Peter Bush doing an excellent job at Bath Uni, training Toby and few other 'just' over 19s.

[ixxychicken]

southern monkey - having read this discussion topic, i agree with a lot of what you are saying.

having watched Rajiv play, i can see he is a very layed back player. However i disagree that he sends me to sleep, watching him play on court is a joy. He is very skilled and extremely tactical.
I understand that many coaches are trying to alter his game for when he enters the senior circuit and leaves under 19. Could this in fact be detrimental to his game?

If he is winning with this unique style, why change it? It hasn't worked with other players. it maybe that having tried alternative styles of play rajiv has chosen the one that suits him best and gives him results

i agree that bringing in ex players such as darren hall would be extrememly beneficial to the up and coming players in england. they don't neccessarily need coaching qualifications but can give help and guidance to these juniors drawing from their own experiences. As has been said before - what is needed for players like rajiv is someone who inspires them!

being a good coach doesn't neccesarily mean you have all sorts of badges and qualifications, but being able to bring out the best in a player and inspire them to reach their potential.
If the BAofE can get Darren Hall on board to act as a mentor as well as the likes of Steve Butler and Justine, it can only be a good thing surely?

[southernmonkey]

Agreed Chicken,however if we want the top in the world we must stop looking at England and look at Chen hong,would rajs game take on his or the other 6 players from China and Indonesia in the next 4 years? Doubt it.
John Gurling,what we need right now is someone to inspire the u19s,regardless of whether they are doing well at the moment might not mean that this is because of Justine,because most of the players are at uni somewhere and still training at there locals.
Personally they listen to justin because they want there lottery money.Going to Justin 1 or 2 times a week isnt going to make them great and all the players that are county level and above should agree with me when reading this.
Answering why Park joo bong left personally was a BAOE problem of not disciplining those great doubles players we have to listen to one of the greatest doubles players of all time but that just sums the BAOE up.
Also lets see how many of our top 10 players of each event play this weekend in the Elite because i thought that they had to play to get lottery funding,wonder who will pull out? colin maybe mmm

[johng]

SM

Not sure what point you are trying to make by saying that Raj would not beat the other top 6 players, are you saying that he has failed if he does not beat them, that a world ranking of 7th or even 8th would be failure.

Raj is still young, he is one of europes top juniors which is an achievment in itself, but as he grows, develops more muscle and strength, not to mention experience his game will probably change and he may well develop a more powerful faster game, but why change something that is currently succesfull, and anyway...who says that success can only come from a power packed explosive player.....I remember a certain Indian player cruising his way around the singles court to an All England Title a couple of years ago.

I am allso confused about your comments regarding Justine......are you saying that she is not the person to inspire our players, if so what do you base that statement on, One could also make the statement that some players would only listen to Daren because they want the lottery money. Although personally I would hope that any player who shows that low level of commitment would be weeded out long before they reach the top squads, regardless of who is in power.

I'm sorry but I have read your paragrph about Park Joo Bong a number of times...and just cannot understand what it is you are attempting to say. perhaps you could explain what you mean again, because I am interested by the comment about 'summing the BAofE up' (a comma or fullstop or 2 might help)


On your final point about drop outs from events, I agree it is disappointing when players pull out, however they can hardly be forced to play.....All they need is a doctors or a physios note saying they are injured and what action can be taken against them.And if they really do not want to play it is simplicity itself to discover a 'tight' muscle during the warm up 'forcing a withdrawal before a point has been played

[southernmonkey]

Sorry Gurling for spelling however we all make mistakes like you, read your bit again and spell ALSO.
Now that we have cleared up that sometimes when we write in a hurry we spell things incorrect especially when writing on here when it doesnt matter that much let me answer your points again in maybe easier terms for you John.
To me for the last 6 years players have got away with pulling out of tournaments,not listening to world class coaches and so on even when they are being paid to and the BAOE have done nothing to stop them.If they once just stood up for themselves and put a stop to this then we might start getting somewhere.
John seeing as though its pretty obvious that you do alot of work with the BAOE doesnt make you no everything,as a player its been very clear for sometime that the system isnt working and that players have never really liked being at MK.The system was better before and we produced more talent which didnt drop out so often like it does now.
As per usual the BAOE and yourself are never aware of these things.
Agreed Raj is still young but i find it hard as a player myself to believe that Justin will offer these players something new.
On training with Butler in my time he didnt coach from a BAOE coaching book neither i doubt did he learn much from the US TEAM,He coached from his experiences as a player and Jstine with a couple of years coaching for me cant teach these young players anything they dont know already.
The situation with PARK is that the BAOE should have dealt with those players in question as it was a crime that they were not listening to PARK.
As ive said before i think Raj is a talent but hes not the first talent and he wont be the last weve had lets hope the BAOE know what they are doing with him because as yet i havent seen that.
Do you understand that john,sorry its along time since i was judged on grammer since A LEVELS.

[johng]

SM.You are right..we all do make mistakes..all I can say in my defence is that at least you could understand what i had written.so don't bother with easier words just make sure that the ones you do use, are understandable.

I agree with you that players have been dropping from tournaments far to often, but I do not know how to stop this. As I mentioned in my previous post, all a player has to do is feign an injury, and get a note from a physio saying that they should not play. Players talk to each other and are well versed in what injuries feel like so can easily lead a physio into 'signing them off' Lets face it, what physio is going to risk telling a player they must turn out for a particular event.....and risk a serious injury. And if a Physio won't do it how can a tournament director.

I would agree that for to long coaches have not been seen to be strict enough with players, but players ARE dropped from squads.

Lets get something clear SM..I have never claimed to know everything that happens at MK.

You claim that the system was working better before.. really...what world class players did we have 6, 7 8 years ago.....how much top level coaching were the Junior squads getting, how much top class physio and training info were they getting.

Yes I am sure a lot of the players would prefer to be at home rather than training hard, and yes those drop outs are mostly due to injury, but that is simply because players are being trained harder.....they will not make world champions if they do not reach the dworkrate of the Koreans, Indonesians or Chinese.

As regard Justin, dont forget she was one of our top players for a long while, so can certainly offer something

[Lemon]

What happened to Mark Methven, he was a good England Coach years back.

[southernmonkey]

John,agree with your point over pull outs but i have to say that Darren,Anders and knowlsey were in the top 10 to 15 in the world and what made them different from players today is that they actually beat world class players.Darren won the Danish open and the europeans,anders was beating the lights of Hoyer larsen and Dong Jong and Knowlsey was beating the Foo Koks and the Rashid sideks and the Thomas steur Lauridsens.

Players today might have similar rankings but never beat decent players or look likely to.
The system clearly worked better 7 years ago and those players i named prove that, and none of them i can assure wanted to train at MK because it wasnt hard enough.
I know this first hand have had the pleasure of trainng with these players for roughly 7 years and i can assure you it was alot harder with them in there own back yard.
Knowlsey,remember those runs in the snow at8.00 in the morning sunny everyday.
You mentioned the koreans,most are over trained and play with bandages all over them but of course they want to win and make the sacrifices,we dont.
Having physios and personal trainers at MK means what,every week some new training program comes out,last i heard you were doing damage if you stretched at MK.
Last thing,Justin willmot was not a bad player but come on john she was hardly a great mover and technical player was she.
As before the best person to coach the u19s is now busy doing something else and if you would like to see him in actiontake a trip to chingford station and get in his cab,what a disgrace.

[cowan]

blimey boys, things are getting hot!
i looked at my world ranking lists for ten years ago (anorak!)and discovered:
Hall 17, Nielsen 20, Butler 23, Knowles 24.
if only we had four in the top 25 we would be laughing now.
incidentally we had two in the top 25 ladies.
i agree with southern monkey the BAofE are a shambolic outfit when it comes to coaching. they have tried to emulate the Far East with the Milton Keynes set up and it hasn't worked.however they regard anyone outside the "fence" who wants to do it a different way as a threat. then the MK mafia start putting the knife in.
(ps southern monkey - you are giving the game away!)
as for references to Colin Haughton, he's been throwing "sickies" since he started!
lemon squash - mark methven, he was quietly removed from the BAofE due to "stress".

[Lemon]

I agree, this would not have happened in Denmark would it?

[johng]

Mark retired for the England set up for personal reasons, but I believe he is still coaching in High Wycombe

[Jamesblond]

Amongst all this talk of Darren Hall coaching in the England setup I don't think anybody has actually touched on the heart of the problem.

Put yourself in Steve Butlers shoes. Would you hire sombody who could possibly come in and take your job away? Of course not! Hence one of the factors is simply job protection.

This is not being hard on Steve. Its just a matter of human instinct.

"Survival of the fittest"

In addition to that is by no means clear that Darren could do better than Steve. Darren was by pure results the better player but this is no means indicates his coaching ability is superior. There are many items such as communication skills(written and spoken), personallity and ability to work in a group. At least some of these items are gained through a formal education in which the behaviour of the human is studied.

The choice is not so easy.

Are Steve's subjects doing well enough on the World stage? If yes then let him get on with it.

[southernmonkey]

Again whats Steves job got to do with it.
Darren however has got the job of talking on Sky TV when big tournaments are on so i think he is capable of communication Blond.
I also dont think that its up to Butler to employ Darren.
My points are simple that Darren has spent his hole youth being very disciplined and he knows the game backwards,getting to the level he did get to requires ebing able to work out what is going wrong on a court and what he needed to do as a player to train and change this.
For me this job is greatly lacking in the junior set up and is one of the reasons why we see our most talented juniors drop out because they are being taught by muppets who havent got a clue.We are not asking him to start someone from scratch but to take our most talented youngsters to the next stage and give them what they need.

[Jamesblond]

Dear Mr Monkey,

You say its a disgrace that Darren can now be found at Chingford Station. This is no disgrace. Its an honest job for which he gets an honest wage.

Darren must have decided a long time ago that getting a formal education was not for him and now he is only seeing the results of the decision. His decision has simply given him a low range for job selection .


If Darren was disciplined then he ought to have been disciplined enough to get himself a more formal education as a form of insurance during his later years.

[southernmonkey]

You obviously are not that experienced are you Blond with life because most of the time its not what you know its who you know,you are clearly a player who gave up but used the excuse that you were getting an education but thats fine.
To me the institution which he belonged to has let him down.He gave so much to England but now with a Dane in charge they have justed left him hanging in the breaze.

[johng]

SM

What on Earth are you on about, are you seriously suggest that Darren was 'left hanging' simply because Finn is Danish.

Whatever faults Finn has, he is above all very proffesional about his Job, committed to Improving English Badminton.

You state that it is not what you know as much as who you know...I would reckon from your claim, that you do not know Finn.

[southernmonkey]

John Gurling,if you can give me and the other readers primary evidence that this great Dane is actually doing us some good then please give us some.You clearly seem to be the BAOE spokesmen so i await your next post.
However please dont assume that i dont know Mr Hansen and that i dont know what iam talking about because of my allias and saa laenge Finn ikke har styr paa tingene, lytter jeg ikke til et ord du siger...smartroev.

[sponsford]

I did not see Rajiv's name in the Wimbledon Elite singles fixtures.
What is going on? Is he not playing? Or is there any other Tournament somewhere else?

[southernmonkey]

i think its Danish cup week?

[sponsford]

Thank you Southern. I think you are right. Quite a few junior (U19s) players are missing from the Wimbledon Elite Tournament. So, again somebody has got their Tournament dates mixed up.

[TonyBear]

If that was only what was mixed up

[johng]

SM
First let me thank you for promoting me to the role of BAofE spokesman, unfortunatly I am not, although I would agree that they need somebody to take on the role, especially seeing some of the inane, ill informed and often abusive comments, that are made in here.

If you had actially read some of my posts you would have seen that I often pass critical comments about the way the BAofE act, as well as standing up for them when people make ridiculous claims.

You ask what Finn has done, well one thing that he done is to stablish the performance criteria and proceses that are helping to push our juniors up the ranking lists, thus helping to improve our chances of remaining near the top of world badminton, an aim I assume you agree with.

Am slightly puzzled by the addition to the post a few words of which I presume were Danish, as I do not speak the language I am afraid your comments were totally wasted, perhaps, as your post was directed at me you could repost in English, as at the moment the only thing I can think of was that by posting in Danish, you were trying to give the impression that you were 'in the know' about Finn

[clingfilm]

it is very interesting to see this thread got so popular within a couple of weeks. what surprises me is the big silence from many regulars like Martin Dew and a few other ex england internatinals not saying a word about what is the future for these kids in english badminton. do they need to go to denmark to play better badminton?
I am sure that Butler,Wilmott and the rest from baofe read this post. are they shy to come out and say, what they have to say. we all know something needs to be done. can somebody come out with an answer to this situation. we have more than 5000 hits on this thread. I.Chicken and S.Monkey came out with some ideas. What about A.Smith's coach taking over baof juniors coaching. or even Mike Goodwin who trained Gilks in our glory days.

[southernmonkey]

Ask John? Cling film,hes there spokesmen on these matters.
John mate you have not shown me still what he has done to improve the situation alot of hot air but no solution and if you want to know what i said then ask your Jesus mr Hansen.
Let me know how he plans to push these youngsters up the rankings because i thought that weve tried to do this all along or maybe iam just not with it these days.

[MKCGavin]

Cling Film:

http://www.badminton.me.uk/

Looks like someone went to a lot of effort to get their opinion seen, what does everyone think?

[johng]

SM

I have no intention of discussing this further with you if you are not prepared to read my earlier posts and if you insist on passing belittling comments about others

However put forward some considered arguments and plans, preferably with some structured ideas behind them and I might respond.

Show that you really care about the sport and that you have given your comments some thought by giving some details and not simple insults and accusations.

Who are you by the way, why do you feel that you cannot voice these deeply held views, perhaps coming out from behind a nic might add more weight to your comments

[Martin Dew-Hattens]

Dear Mr C. Film,

I am one of the few ex-players who dares to use their own name here. This actually should not be the way it is but the truth is that we get slated by other posters if we post too often or come with a view which is a little too much off the general line of thinking. I have no offical capacity in the UK which could be put in danger by any post and so I can say what I actually believe. This might well be a refreshing idea for all to follow.

I do have many ideas but in some cases I can see no value in posting and don't want to get involved in a slagging match. I do work in IT business and therefore am on the net most days of the week. I do find this web site interesting and informative and will try to support it with positive input whenever I can.

On the real business of this thread - I saw rajiv today at Gentofte Badminton club. He looks to be a cool, controlled and aggresive player when the needs be. I can see no reason why he could not be very good in the fullness of time.

In fact the England team look to be the most competitive I have seen play here for many a year - good skills, fast and strong.

[southernmonkey]

Hear what you are saying John but have to admit that if you look back on all of my posts on this thread you will see that i have had a point for some time now and that it is you who chooses to smoke screen all of them.
Iam an Ex player and like Martin has just said feel that there is no point in revealing my identity.I speak my mind and until most explayers like myself who view this site see any real improvement in the system,i dont know why we should keep quiet,i didnt ask you of all people to respond to my post,iam after people who have been out on those courts who have seen this country go down hill from the inside not sitting on the sidelines.
However John i dont hold it against you.

[clingfilm]

Thank you so much Martin. You are a gentleman to come forward and post your opinion about rajiv.
apparently rajiv lost in the singles finals in denmark. but he won mixed doubles with westly.

[Lemon]

That was a good result, I don't think they have ever played together before.
Perhaps a pair for the future, plenty more practise over the next few months then six nations(or is it eight).

[Debbie]

It will be the 6 Nations over the weekend of 10th April 2004. Last year it was the European Juniors. They take place every two years.

[sponsford]

Well done Rajiv and Caroline for winning the mixed doubles. But hold on!
I thought these two are our best Singles players. What went wrong or rather what went right?

[clingfilm]

Gavin,
thanks. i visited the site. many of them are very valid points. wonder baofe see these comments.
cling.

[Lemon]

You are right, I think they are our best singles players but obviously did not make it this time. Have the baofe been doing it wrong all this time. Should they have been coaching Rajiv and Caroline to reach the top in mixed. Lets face it they will never compete at world level in singles.
Take notice baofe, future world mixed champions in the making or not?

[ixxychicken]

didn't rajiv win the mixed doubles in the yorkshire open recently? i agree, maybe he should be trained further

considering his results in both - he must be doing something right!

It is good news to hear such positive feedback about the english team from Martin Dew

[ixxychicken]

didn't rajiv win the mixed doubles in the yorkshire open recently? i agree, maybe he should be trained further

considering his results in both - he must be doing something right!

It is good news to hear such positive feedback about the english team from Martin Dew

[ixxychicken]

didn't rajiv win the mixed doubles in the yorkshire open recently? i agree, maybe he should be trained further

considering his results in both - he must be doing something right!

It is good news to hear such positive feedback about the english team from Martin Dew

but what do the coaches think of rajiv's performances? do they read this site?

[Lemon]

Is Caroline Westley No.1 at Mixed in Under 19?What county is she from?
And Rajiv, where is he in the Mixed rankings?

[clingfilm]

i think westly is ranked 2/3 in mixed.
no idea about raj.

[Lemon]

Who is number 1 then?
Surely the baofe should build on this win out in Denmark. Work with the kids for the next 6 months so that by April 2004 we will go out to the six nations and win 5 golds in all age groups and 3 team golds.
Come on baofe sit up and do something for a change.

[Michael Banks]

The whole baofe bashing is getting so tedious and boring. Give them credit when it is due, they are by no means perfect but you can't consistently dig at them for everything. Either support them or have constructive criticism otherwise everyone will be sent to sleep.

[johng]

Lemon Squash

I can only assume that your post was meant as a joke

Do you really think that the BAofE will sit back and simply do NOTHING with the U15,17 and 19 squads. Of course they will work with them....that is the whole point of the World Class programs

As regards your comment about 'doing something for a change'....who do you think has funded and provided all the coaching and ancillary aspects that has helped these juniors to get to where they are now.

One good thing to come out of the superb results from the juniors... It has helped to quieten most of those who were running down the BAofE....and Rajiv in particular....perhaps we can now get behind them.....

[Lemon]

I agree that the funding has helped. But these are the type of individuals that would have made anyway without the baofe funding. These are the kids that train hard and prioritise their life. Sure the baofe help but without the lottery funding they would not have a job and without the determination and guts of these kids, there would not be lottery funding.
The baofe are not there for them every minute of every day.
They are the ones who decide to go for a run or down the gym or book a court with their coach. They manage this too with education running alongside.
So don't give me all that about the baofe and world class performance. Its all down to the kids, perhaps some congratulations are in order from everyone!!!!

[southernmonkey]

Er john,these players have got to where they are now through the hard work of county based coaching and small clubs have helped them.Are you telling us again that its down to the BAOE john coz you are wrong mate.
Coaches at the BAOE will get these players when the hard work is done,iam not saying that is wrong but dont put it to the BAOE.
Butler will do his job in taking these young players to the next stage and iam sure he will do a good job but lets not forget the hard work of smaller coaches out there that give the foundations to these players.
Also John have you visited a cell in your area lately to see the good work you are saying they are doing?

[Lemon]

How right you are mate.
The baofe only see them when they start to compete in tournaments. Up to that date it has been their private coaches that have helped them to get to that height. Even after they have been 'discovered' its still down to the individuals and their parents to keep them moving on.

[JohnStevens]

Site Support can we have an ignore button built into the forum?

[johng]

I am certainly not saying that the success gained was simply down to the BAofE, clearly the players themselves have worked hard to get where they are now, that is so patently obvious I thought it did not need to be said.

But the BAofE clearly have an imput into the process........a point that you clearly accept, as you so consistantly attack them for the lack of Englisgh success..so by your own admission they must be involved.

Yes I have been down to the local cell sessions.

I must admit I am a little puzzled, I understood that part of the funding for the cells came from the world class performance package, administerd by the BAofE. !!!!!!!!!!!!!.

[Michael Banks]

I second that John Stevens - it is about time the name calling cowards hiding behind silly names are put to right.

[johng]

Michael......It might be silly to you mate, but it happens to be me real name !!!!!!!!!!!

[cowan]

michael and john
i agree this thread is becoming boring.
however have either of you had to work with the baofe?
perhaps having had to earn a living in the game or depend on them for your money?
i can promise you your attitude would be different.
i would dearly love to have the breakdown of how much money they spend on players as compared to administrators, coaches and so called marketing people.
in my humble opinion this game will continue to slowly suffocate until the whole structure is streamlined.
unfortunately the "fat cats" at MKHQ will sit with their bowls of cream safe in the knowledge that they will never be removed until their pensions arrive.
we can talk all we like here, nothing will change until the lottery money dries up then watch them jump ship.
sorry for the sermon!!

[Lemon]

You were obviously involved with the baofe at some time and THEY UPSET YOU.
Clearly your face did not fit!

[johng]

Michael

Yes, I have worked with tha BAofE

I agree that some of the things they do deserves critisism, But a lot of what they do does not.

I have no problem with people passing adverse comments about specific problems, but to slag of the whole organisation for the things that they do not get right is utterly ridiculous.

Somehow I think you might have a long wait for the cashflow breakdowns you require, but don't forget those administrators you dislike, are also the ones running the events, coaching, development and bisi programs.

And surely money spent on the coaching side essentially helps the players.

I also have to admit, I have not actually seen any 'fat cats' at MK, only paid staff, and a number of hard working volunteers.

You also mention the marketing people...may I ask who is going to help promote the game in the press and try to get sponsorship cash flowing if you did not have a marketing department, and that is the problem........there is nobody willing to put substantial amounts of cash into the sport.

You mention that the sport will die unless the system is streamlined, may I ask what you would suggest, and how it would be run.

[Site Support]

Thread now locked...I think the thread title has been exhausted and most posts are now well off topic.

[kingpin]

This thread has been re-opened, a truely legendary thread, this site needs an injection of excitement, also shows the monkey in his prime.

[Site Support]

Nope...thread closed as before.