What does everyone think about the england juniors?

[Tom121]

In light of the good results at danish cup, do people now have a more positive approach towards England's junior players? I was certainly very impressed by the results, particulary by the U19 age group, who it seems won 10 medals in the individual tournament (look on the baofe website for more detailed reults). I would like to know:

1)if people feel that these results show that we can produce top world class senior players in the near future?

2)Do we have any young players who have the potential to become world class players?

3)Is the system improving, or are the results down to hard work of individual players?

[johng]

Tom

Think the juniors of all age groups deserve our congratulations on their great performances in the Danish Cup.

Can we produce world class senior players, yes of course we can. Can we produce World or Olympic Champions, probably not.

Do we have juniors with the right potential, I think we do, but whether they fullfill that potential is another matter.

Yes I think that the system IS improving and that it was hard work that helped in the medal haul. The 2 almost certainly go together.

[stuartwardell]

Iam not sure that we have the perfect system but who does.Reports are that Denmark are not over happy with theirs.
I think we have got talent in these age groups you have mentioned but lets not think we have done it all now.We have had talent before and some how its given up for reasons which the BAOE should try and identify.
I also think that the BAOE should not spoil these youngsters,hold them up to high.Yes they should be given the respect they deserve but lets not go overboard because i think this has been the a reason why so much of our talent disapears.
Butler for me was doing a good job with the u19s and it was good to see a coach study the top players of today and their movement.
I would like to see Darren or Peter knowles help our now u19s as i think they are the best people for the job now.I have been reading alot of post to date of people who clearly agree.For me this is an important age group as these are impressionable young players who need to be tweeked like Butler used to.

[Lemon]

What are you talking about Stuart.
Give them too much praise. Just a little would nice, they don't usually get any at all! 95% of all this hard work is down to the individuals. We have some good groups to work on. Why are the Under 19's and 17 not being asked along to Milton Keynes NOW. Especially with so many seniors either dropping out or injured or sick. Fill those course with some youngsters, give them the experience of playing against and with our seniors.

[Jamesblond]

If the England juniors are doing so well then why take them to MK?

Seems they are dong just fine without it.

Who knows - if they keep away they might find the rythem which suits them and help them keep injury free and ready to play for England when really needed.

The moto of this story

"if it works - don't fix it"

[southernmonkey]

Lemon, i think its you whos talking crap sunny.
Thats the best idea you can come up with that just send all the top juniors to MK,sounds to me sunny that you are one of those youngsters who's not good enough to go to MK or like most of the real talent who are invited from time to time.

[johng]

typical...A thread that would benifit from serious debate...and already we have decended into personal abuse and intolerance for those that hold differing views

[stuartwardell]

John can you stop moaning all the time,i cant see what is offensive on this thread.Ive been reading these threads for some weeks now all i see is you moaning.I could have taken offense to what lemon said,its his point of view however and as for monkey well thats his view.
All you are going to do is get the idiots onto you again by your moaning,let site support decide what is out and what is in please otherwise you are going to get every thread closed at this rate.

[Michael Banks]

Out of order Stuart it is you and others who have to always have to revert to personal comments. John is one of the few who has a balanced view. John is exactly right here as threads are being constantly taken off topic and littered with personal comments and things unrelated to the topic title.

[stuartwardell]

Out of order,what are you talking about.The aliases can do what they want to each other,who cares.Its when they attack a real name that it becomes personal.Anyway let site support say what is offensive and what is not thats all iam sayiny banks thats why they are their.Whats the point in someone joining the thread to say that anyway,as far as iam concerned it makes them targets for the idiots and Banks its my point of view with a real name behined it.
Show me a thread where ive been rude to someone Banks.

[JohnStevens]

I have only recently registered with the site and I think it offers a great deal to badminton especially here in the UK. The only big disappointment here is when people use several Nom de plumes within a single topic.

I by no means have issue with a pen name as long as the writer is articulate and has a valid point for posting, but when someone invents several names and has a conversation with themselves, quite frankly, I find that quite sad and juvenile.

I'd rather not single you out Stuart, if that is your real name, but your over aggressiveness to other members vindicates this. Why do you do it? Stuart or is it Southern Monkey. Same spelling errors, same grammatical style and a weird reluctance to have spaces around punctuation. By all means contribute positively but at the same time don't take us for fools.

[Michael Banks]

Wow John - great spotting!!!!!! The cheat police are alive and well and coming to get you :)

[Lemon]

Oh come on, get back on topic.
How does everyone think the Junior teams should now be treated, after their victories in the Danish Cup.
Loads of praise and practise (pp) or just leave things as they are and wait until the six nations next year, see what they can go then?

[dlp]

The system has been reformed and improved massively. Even five years ago top England juniors were largely left to their own devices in terms of training, occasional get togethers at half terms or during Summer were the only structured practice for major competitions. Now even the under 15s get two two hour sessions within the world class wherever they live and many more trainig weekends during the Summer.

Great results in the Danish Cup, clearly some strong junior players. Remember that in the team competition Denmark are playing as regions, so DK still has a great depth of quality players, improving the chances of future senior stars where we still suffer slightly from having all our eggs in one basket. Outside the A players there is little competition/club/coaching structure to keep the other juniors close to the elite.

Of course talented players need to be fast tracked to the best coaches/play at MK but at the same time if players are given too much too soon in the long term it will probably produce mentally weaker players, the harder they have to battle to progress to the top the better they will be in the end.

[Site Support]

Thanks for getting back on topic...all further posts surrounding any other issues placed on this thread will be removed.

[ians]

i think whats not in doubt is the fact that results wise we have the best set of juniors in a long time and i think that a lot of credit must go to the system in place for that.maybe now we're seeing the first signs of the programme starting to take shape and become effective, after all these things take time to develop.i saw some good juniors playing prem b at the weekend especially a lefty singles player from notts(don't know his name-sorry)who has all the right attributes to make that step up to world class badminton.the crucial age is from 16-18 where these players are discovering their social lives and other interests and whether they can stay focused on badminton? its a difficult one to answer but i think its largely down to the individuals personality,rather than something that can be controlled by the ba of e

[stuartwardell]

Site support,i think that it is only fair that you let me reply to Johns great detective work which you so kindly have kept on which has diverted off track somewhat.
John I might no be as articulate as you but my points are still valid.If you want to go around the forum saying that you have to have a degree in the English language to post on this forum then to me this is another form of being rude to fellow members of this site.Please do not tar me with the same brush as Monkey however he has some pretty good comments to make.Site support i would like to get back on track now also.Thanks

[stuartwardell]

Had chris Langridge playing in my team at the weekend in Premier A,He won the doubles in Denmark and for me is a good talent for the future.
If these players can keep improving whilst being at university and all that has to offer then we will have a strong future.
Agree with Sullivan that its down to the individual which to be honest england have been unlucky to loose over the last 5 years some very talented players who have decided that its not for them.
I also agree that this might be the start of seeing the system working.

[TonyBear]

I am so proud of the England Juniors it gives me heart palpitations.

and for those who did not make the team ...

Michael Jordan and Bob Cousy were each cut from their high school basketball teams. Jordan once observed, "I've failed over and over again in my life. That is why I succeed."

[johng]

I think we have to be carefull that we do not over react to the recent performances. The results obtained by the juniors were superb and they deserve full recognition for those achievements, but lets keep our feet on the ground.

The results from one tournament should not be used as a 'given' that senior success will follow, we have had good juniors before...and still wait for mass senior success.

We can only hope that the players can cope with the extra successes of boy/girlfriends and the greater demands that the senior tour will throw at them

Lets hope that the players will gain encouragement from these results and see the benifits of the hard work they have put in, and also that the coaching system that is now in place can continue to guide them further.

At the risk of being accused of going off theme.....I have to admit I find it interesting that only a few weeks ago, the BAofE was being slagged off for failing English Badminton and not doing enough for Junior Badminton.....and now that the success has started to show, we find that the same people claim that 90% of the work was done by the players themselves !!!!!!!...

[danbecks]

John
The work is done by the player,the coach just guides them in the right direction.
I bet you if you left half these players with their coaches back home they probably would still achieve.
If these players had one to one coaching they would achieve faster.
So you cant say its all down to the Ba of e.
The BA of e have just got all the market now so they take the credit.

[chrisroe]

Certainly from the Premier A weekend at Milton Keynes there seemed to be an awful lot of juniors / U21's playing who show a lot of promise for the future. The critical time is the next 3 years in their transition from top juniors to see how they get on in senior international competitions.

cheers,
chris.

[Tom121]

Although we did well in Danish Cup, I noticed that most of our results came in the doubles events. This is not suprising as England has always excelled in the doubles events more than singles, but do you think that we can produce any world class singles players in the future?

I noticed that recently our women's singles players are doing very well interntionally, with Jill Pittard winning the Slovenian EBU at the weekend, and Tracey Hallam doing exceptionally well against top world class opponents. Unfortunately our men do not seem to be excelling internationally in the same way. Is the women's success down to the chinese method of coaching institued by the chinese coach, Yvette, at Milton Keynes?

[loopykaz]

What do you mean, Tom, about us having no top juniors? At U15 Danish Cup level, both singles events were won by English players - Chris Adcock in the boys, and Michelle Cheung in the girls. Singles talent is truly on its way.

[Lemon]

I presume you were referring to me when you say " the same people were slagging off the baofe a couple of weeks ago". I still stick with my comments of recent days. 90% of the work was down to the players, just imagine how they would have progressed if the baofe had given more time to them.
Apparently there were some good juniors playing in Premier A at the weekend, this is what they need. More contact with senior players both against and playing with. The chinese have this contact, day in day out. True its easy because there are so many of them, but we could improve that contact time. Someday perhaps....

[adders]

Hi Ian - Thanks for the comments on the Leftie from Notts. It was I believe Chris Adcock who won 3 golds at the Danish cup the other weekend. Singles, Doubles and team at under 15. Premier B was a little tougher however!!!

[ians]

i think it is essential that the juniors such as chris adcock(thanks paul)play in events such as prem weekends and challengers because its great experience against solid county players who have been around and seen it all. they can be incredibly tough to beat and its a totally different game to what they are used to.i.e:the physical aspect and the fact that the shuttle just keeps coming back when it usually doesn't in juniors. don't be too worried about it being tough because you'll be amazed at how fast you'll overtake them in a year or two when your body develops with age

[georgelarge]

I believe the vast majority of the top junior players wont to become top senior players, yes there will be some dropouts but as long as the backing is there they will come through, they are adolescents and have all the trauma of growing up to deal with along with being the top of their sport (I wouldn't wont to grow up again and I didn't have to deal with winning, losing and training at the same time). We mustn't forget that they are young and there will be disappointments in tournaments but given the right backing, nurturing and support from parents, coaches, counties and BAofE they will get there in the end.

If anyone has read the John McEnroe biography, on the first page I think he says that without his father pushing him every day to train he wouldn't have made it to the top.

And yes, its a different kettle of fish playing Premier B, Dean enjoyed every single second. Counties must appreciate their top juniors - they are the future.
Teresa

[SUPERTED]

The trouble we are going to have with juniors now is, what happens when the lottery money runs out? the majority won`t have the financial backing to play full time. will they have the dedication and commitment,as players before lottery funding had, to hold a job and train hard at the same time while resisting the social temptations? I sincerely hope that they do because i think we have some of the best talent that we have had for a long time and it would be a great shame to let it waste away.

[Lemon]

Thats why we go back to the old chestnut"education". Get yourself an education then should anything happen regarding lottery funding - No Problems. Well less of them anyway!

[danbecks]

Its not what you know, its who you know lemon head.

[Michael Banks]

So, people are not picked on ability? They are picked on how well they know and get on with the selectors?

[eddyhang]

I've got to say that the results were good at the Danish Cup but European badminton is no longer a bench mark of world class potential. Asia has moved on + there are only ahandful of countries reprsented at the Danish Cup. What about Russia etc?? Put Chris Adcock or Michelle Cheung up against any junior National Asian player of simialar age and they would get mauled. The crucial thing is there development from 13 - 19 as this the time when talent kids develop either into world class players or good county players. We can't compete on a physical level with asia due to their method of training them young. However there are other ways...

[Grover]

Go on Eddie, you want to tell us!!!

[danbecks]

Flip side to that eddy is that i remember playing against Malaysia as a junior and they had players that were U16 who had bigger legs than Chen hong and didnt look 15 thats for sure.
Its very common for europeans to peak later everyone knows that.
Remember Hoyer larsen beating that Asian youngster in the olympic final 96 eddy.

[northernman]

I think that most people are a little harsh on the england juniors.
We are all forgetting that the reason that these children get into badminton is for enjoyment, yet there are armies of people putting heaps of pressure on them constantly.
I have been to odd tournaments and competitons and two personalities that stand out to me is the 2 under 19 girls Caroline Westley and Sarah Bok. These are 2 girls that are obvioulsy committed to their badminton to get this far (i.e Caroline winning danish cup with Raj OUseph I think) but they always look to be enjoying themselves in the meanwhile, whilst becoming serious and focussed when it is needed.
The junior team should never find themselves being pressured so much to succeed that they lse the enjoyment out of the sport.
I was recently at the premier A weekend and saw these 2 girls relaxed and enjoying themselves, as well as performing for their counties when it was needed. Caroline had a good win over Julie Standly and Sarah also performed very very well.
So lets give these Juniors a bit of a break and let them continue playing well and enjoying.

[danbecks]

Eddy
another reason why the asians will beat the europeans at a young age is that coaches over here are very cautious of weight training at such a young age. In asia this is not a concern and the youngsters are burnt out by 24-25.
I wouldnt like to see Raj in this dilema even if he got mauled as you put it by the asians.

[Lemon]

I agree with you about Caroline and Sarah, they are certainly two personalities that do the sport some good. Why cant more of the Juniors be like these two girls. Just what the sport needs. I under stand Sarah played some excellent doubles and Caroline nearly beat Gail Emms. Keep it up you two, its just what the sport of badminton needs.

[southernmonkey]

Lemon
me finks you fancy sarah bok, coz you got your facts wrong about her playin well at the weekend, she got duffed up geezer.
caroline played good though so my posse say, good little talent she is, fink she will be good all rounder if the baoe let er play all events.

[Lemon]

Well, monkey face, I heard Sarah Bok was playing well, was not there myself but other sources told me. Everyone has been full of praise for Caroline Westley. I have thought for a long time that she will go onto greater things. She is proving me right so far. Would you say she is the best mixed player in her age group?

[northernman]

dont worry if you do have a soft spot for these 2 girls lemon, they are very good looking girls, both get a lot of attention. I think Caroline probably is one of the best mixed player sin the age group now along with raj ouseph, after them winning danish cup, especially as i dont think they have ever played together before.Maybe thats the way forward for mixed. Put your too best singles players together to have a go.
The baofe should be very happy to have players like Caroline and Raj in their team. They can badcially put them in any event and they would always have a chance of winning. However I think Robin Middleton and Sarah Bok are seeded no.1 in England as they are doubles players and actually train for it.I think this is right anyway.

[danbecks]

I think she's the best all rounder we have got lemon, agree with you on that one son.
I think that england will have to stop chucking all our talent into doubles though. To me she is a good talent in singles but i bet in a few years she will be a doubles or mixed player like other talents like Hayley connor.
Just because there is a player better at the moment than her at singles who is a year younger, they invest in the younger player and the hayley character who is as talented gets put into doubles and mixed. The young player then gives up and you have no singles players.
When will England learn?

[Lemon]

Thoroughly agree with you. They should not 'put all their eggs in one basket' As I dont think Eleanor cox will last but I do think players like Jenny, Caroline and Sarah will stay with it. Perhaps someone from baofe is reading this eh! She is excellent singles and mixed but I dont particularly rate her for doubles, what do you think?

[northernman]

Yer i think that caroline and jenny have much more potential

**personal comments removed by site support 20:31 25/10/03**

yer caroline is a very good singles and mixed player, but i dont think she even plays doubles that much. I think they only have to put her in doubles because they have nobody else that they can put with sarah bok.they do well considering caroline doesnt ever train or play in doubles.

[Lemon]

Do you think that the baofe should try out some of these top juniors with a senior player. For instance try out Jenny Day with Gail Emms and try out Caroline Westley with Robert Blair or Peter Jeffreys. The baofe should enter them in a Challenger together. From what I hear aboutthese juniors they would not play any worse than the present partners of Gail Emms or Robert Blair. What do you all think?

[danbecks]

Lemon my son, yeah i do think they should play with the older players but not to old. Maybe 3 years above their age groups.

[Lemon]

what difference does age make once you are in the seniors?

[TonyBear]

i guess one wouldnt want to be lumbered with a know it all slow coach ?


(like me)

[Lemon]

Do you think there is favrotism with the selectors and the juniors? I think there is, at the moment its Eleanor Cox and Rajiv Ouseph.

[southernmonkey]

Na lemon, they is the best around for miles, and they is from de soufth so you cant fault them geezer.
They both knows how to play coz dann souf we teach em right so there aint know favrotism.
The others though, cha man they is just windgers specially those ones from newcasle.
You shock me lemon wiffe talk like that coz they is the only ones gettin bloody results. Big up de souff players and long live king raj.

[bobmint]

i don't agree, there is no favouritism towards eleanor and rajiv, it is all towards caroline westley and sarah bok, but i do think that they deserve it as they work the hardest and have the most potential. the baofe should be extremely proud of havin these girls in the england squad as balancing both education and badminton at university is a hard task but these girls seem to be managing it

[Zuli]

i think u ppl better use your brain power to try to improve ur national team even more and not to say and implicate serious things!

[ixxychicken]

Lemon, I agree that there is favouritism between the selectors and the players.

There will always be some form of sub-conscious favouritism however hard you try to remove it - its part of human nature!

However, when picking teams for a national squad if there is any unfounded favouritism this will be clearly evident as there will not be acceptable results
In both Eleanor and Rajiv's case - both players produce excellent results both at home and abroad! so here i think the favouritism is justified!

don't know about you lemon, but instead of complaining of favouritism, looks like its back to hard work and training for me and then maybe it will be us that are 'favorites' in the selectors eyes!

[ixxychicken]

with regard to eleanor cox in comparison to jenny, caroline and sarah - correct me if i'm wrong but isn't eleanor a couple of years younger than these players? as far as i can see she's showing early signs of the makings of a good player - its a bit early to judge if she will last or not
and she seems to be holding her own amoungst these older girls especially in the singles front

[Lemon]

Yer, she is younger but I fink she is only l year younger. Be interesting to see whether it lasts. Should be a very good Under 19 nationals this year for the girls singles. The boys singles is probably a forgone conclusion. Raj the winner and either Harry Wright or Neil White runner up. Am I right or am I wright or am I White?

[fredwills]

Ha ha LS.
Eleanor will win the final of the under 19's easily. She is way to strong for the others. Cw is strong but not that strong.
Raj ouseph will obviously win the mens, well predicted Ls.

[simonmollyhus]

i think that the singles events are very open this year but the mens doubles is a forgone conclusion because me and big kev talmage are back on the scene and raring to go!!!!!