ICT '04

[biggy]

I know there is already a thread similar to this but this one isn't about the scots.does anyone know the draw?favourites?and the teams?and any more information on the promotion idea?

[jmj875]

All team managers have copies of the draw...Favourites will be the usual...Yorkshire, Notts, I think Bucks could do even better this year.

[ADZ1]

cheers john we will hope to do better than our massive improvement from last year, bit upset about our seeding (*cough* bit of favouritsm) however still going to play my a*se off. nobody specific all i know is bucks have got cheshire worcestershire and i think leicestershire and dorset in the first round

[JohnEllis]

Nobody
The title of the other thread was to try and fire up a response from the Scots. It failed miserably unfortunately, especially as they were shouting their mouths of (on other threads) about how good their under 17 squad was and how they could beat England's top players.

[Bowland]

Is there a website to view the ICT results?

[coops]

lol - try esba.co.uk, then baofe.co.uk - and then sigh....

as per usual the baofe can't afford to embrace the new technology and it it left to volunteers to do the donkey work to keep our sport going. i would suggest trying the nottsba.co.uk site - they seem to have last years results, but i'm not sure how often this gets updated - good site tho..

[Site Support]

We have the results and reports from last year:

http://www.badders.com/news.fmi?seshid=&nid=350

...and a fantastic report from Matthew Ross who played in the tournament:

http://www.badders.com/news.fmi?seshid=&nid=361

As always we will have this years as soon as they are available from the YSB committee.

Regards,
Site Support

[justme]

its finished now, ne results ?

[Simaframe]

Yorkshire beat Nottinghamshire 8-2 in the final.

[MrChips]

I'm surprised there aren't more posts on here!

Another fantastic year and another win for Yorkshire. Good on them. But what on earth do they feed them up there?

I have to say that, although spectating this year was good fun, it wasn't quite the same as actually getting on the courts and hitting shuttles.

[justme]

is the excitementof this competion going down ? i remember last year there seemed to be alot of enthusiasm both talking to people and on badders.com

[MrChips]

You are right, the atmosphere wasn't quite as good as when i played last year.

I think that Yorkshire were so strong that it could have detracted form the entertainment side of things.

For a final to end up as 8 - 2 isn't what we expect at ICT. It looks like yorkshire are the Chinese of the English counties.

[northantsgirl]

anyone know who came 3rd was it hampshire? they sure kicked our ass!!

[MrChips]

It was Herts!

[northantsgirl]

ahh. wot was the score. i didnt stay 2 watch.do u no anywhere where u can get the results tables?

[coops]

anyone hear how lancs did in the end, the last i heard was that they were playing off for 11/12 with cheshire, and that one of our girls sprained her ankle :o(

[northantsgirl]

i thought lancs might have beaten cheshire, but dont hold me 2 that. we didnt get a chance 2 play lancs this year.

[MrChips]

We won 8-2

[northantsgirl]

can u find out who is online on this thing?

[Site Support]

Heather, if someone is online the ball next to their name turns yellow.

You can instant message them whether they are online or not by clicking on the ball.

If they are online the message pops up straight away...if they are not online, it pops up when they next logon.

Regards,
Site Support

[coops]

cheers heather... unfortunately i don't think BAofE or ESBA has the time/resource/funds to keep a simple results website up to date - considering the no. of leagues that run their own sites with results/message boards and the like i find this very disappointing...

[jen]

Although little consolation for the Nottinghamshire team, the final score was actually 7-3.

[Site Support]

Neil, if the foundations are put in place, a website is a cheap and speedy way of disseminating results to everyone.

The biggest problem we have at Badders.com is that no one is prepared to send the results to us. The organisers of events are simply not willing to put any effort into getting their results published.

It takes us 30 seconds to get results up. The same goes for any site. It takes seconds and zero cost to publish the results.

If the organisers cared enough then they would be published no more than an hour after the event finished.

If the event have their own site then there are certainly no excuses.

Site Support.

[coops]

agree - there are no excuses - lets hope the BAofE and ESBA get there act together - ESBA especially since the kids of today are more internet savvy than ever and love to see their names in lights, whether it be in the paper or on a website..

[KnowAll]

For those of you that don't know, ESBA doesn't exists anymore! it hans't done for some time! It has been abosorbed into the BA of E as the Schools and Youth Board. I am told that it was said at the managers meeting that the results were not put on the website as they happened as there is no telphone point at the university sports centre or in the halls of residence. Hopefully by next year they should have ironed out this details. Full results and various reports produced by Daniel Wright, Assistant Referee (Communications & Publicity) as well as a special ICT newsletter (for those who subsrcibed the the S&YB Newsletter), will be put on the website as soon as the eprofessional staff at the BA of E put it on the website! It will certainly be on by Wednesday I am told. It is not the fault of the Schools and Youth Board volunteers who give hours and hours of their time, with no financial reward and just get slated by the people on this forum.

Incidently, Lancashire lost 8-2 to Cheshire

[Michael Banks]

Graham - a bit defensive don't you think. I am not aware of anyone who has 'slated' the volunteers who in my opinion are the hero's of the badminton world.

Question is how long does it take for those 'professional' people to get into on the website. Too long!!!! Fact!!!

[coops]

my apologies if i was a bit over critical of the BAofE- the news about ESBA is certainly news to me. clearly i am more out of touch with the junior system than i thought. i can't criticise the S&YB for the state of the BAofE site, since they are notoriously slow to update. But, given that there are sooo many sites to publish results on, and the BAofE marketting budget is almost none existent, surely it should be a priority to use what cheap promotional space is available on the plethora of badmiton sites (including this one) in order to promote our sport to the younger people.

[allyM]

Back to what david westwood was sayin...
im from lancs, no we lost to cheshire 8-2 which im pretty pissed off about. what can i say, dave(dunlop) played the team wrong. I told him a thousand times that peter fearns wasnt playin singles cos he was ill, our no. 2 could win the singles and tom could win our mixed. I could'v won our 2nd singles, but he decided to play me in only 1 game yet again. and we should have won our boys doubles, but all our team apart from me, laura walsh and amanda barret were a bit hungover to put it lightly. Thats 5 games, and we had some close girls games we could have won to take the match. Apparently Amanda actually broke her ankle, and i hope she gets well soon, as she has improved so much. Sorry if i have sounded bitchy, but it was an old greater manchester grudge match, and my last ever u17 match, and we lost it because dave would not listen to me.

[northumberland]

does anyone no where northumberland came? im from there but we left about 11 on sunday so havnt found out how badly we did!!!

[suffolkgirl]

hi ICT ppl. Well done yorkshire, the final was really gd. My team did **** but we were so totally the noisiest team!!!!!!

[Site Support]

Sarah...the results have now been put up on the BA of E site.

[GraWade]

hi. im From cheshire, and we came 11th, whilst beating lancashire in the process (8-2), which is the best we have ever came in ict. Im from the old greater manchester cell, so after the split, i felt that cheshire and all people involved did well to sort themselves out and come 11th, and the team performance and spirit was great. Even our tracksuits were the best!

[suffolkgirl]

omg, u beat lancs!!! well dun. They thrashed us (particularly dunlop!!!!!!!!) damn he's way too gd!! Well done for coming 11th

[GraWade]

well me and peter fearns beat tom and darren 21-7, but i agree with ally earlia, they didnt play there team right, but we got it right on the day, an pete played awsome!!

[suffolkgirl]

yeah, we watched that match from the balcony

[GraWade]

wat score was it in suffolk vs lancs?

[befoni]

heya, im frm warwicks and came 9th, i dnt kno how cuz we played a crap team, but alls good, kinda, lol

ps. gra we beat u, and ps ps ali unlucky, yeh ur county seems to suck, joe didnt even go

[GraWade]

warrickshire were a good team, they played well agaisnt us. But i do think that beth let down the side

[suffolkgirl]

hey warwickshire girl, we were chatting to some of ur team through our bedroom window!!!

[GraWade]

so were suffolk in derby house too, what did everyone think of the food? the rooms were good though.

[suffolkgirl]

the food ws so bad but chattin to ppl through our window was a laugh

[suffolkgirl]

Graham, were u in derby then, we didn't chat to ne of ur team

[GraWade]

yeh we were. we were in the building nxt to warricks, it was like on the corner of ours. which one were u in?no i dont think we did spk to your team,not sure why, maybe just didnt cross paths, are u U16? or U17?

[coops]

hey there, wow - quite a lot of chatter here - for all the lancs people worrying about amanda - she is okay - and from what she's said it is a sprain - she's been icin' it all day and started to do some movements. she will be back! i'm sure all her club mates (including me) wish her all the best and are glad to have such a talented and improving lady playing for us.

Neil

[Daveybwoy69]

well guess what the old essex team came 8th with the fine coaching of the Legend Steve Bish and myself

[befoni]

hey that was uncalled for, and ive just noticed, that joe is from ches, and im talkin pants. ahh well ps, gra u stink and we beat u fair and square ur just jelous. and hey suffolk gurl i duno hu u r!!!!!!!

[northumberland]

who was 4th
where did lincs come

[GraWade]

they came from 5th to 8th, i have a strong feeling its 7th, but i cant remember so dont hold me to that.

[GraWade]

and hearts were 4th

[northumberland]

thanks
y was joe chan not in ur team?

[GraWade]

where are you from? ive heard your name before, i think? selection, he was tired in training, bcos it was after a school match always

[befoni]

P.S my comments were for gra, and hes a page b4 me, so it probs dnt make sense :D

[northumberland]

wer u askn where i am from?

[northumberland]

if u wer i am from the mighty northumberland!!! best county in the country, lol.

[suffolkgirl]

suffolk is sooo much better

[befoni]

hey, i think lincs beat bucks, to 5 but i duno, dnt seem rite, so i duno, and herts came 3rd, and hamps came 4th, and gra u stink

[coops]

hehe - i have to say newcastle and northumblerland universites are also very noisy... newcastle were a good side, altho we (UMIST) beat them, and northumberland were the same - having andy hogg helps..

[northumberland]

who r u neil?

[coops]

i trained with lancashire last time they entered ICT - about 6/7 years ago. now i help coach juniors in lancashire - amanda barret is one of the juniors that has come through our junior club..

but i played university league for the last 4 years so i've been around a bit and to various tournaments

[befoni]

i kno im a bit slow, but joe wasnt picked, so unfair it was his last yr aswell, but he came up on the friday.

[Cat]

go leinster.....we came 16th!!same as last year
aw well! the tournament was amazing...best ever!wud be brillaint if there was an u19 one.well done yorkshire...we missed the finals hadda leave at like 12...v.annoying!

[allyM]

hi agen iv calmed down now. i know i shouldn't blame dave for it (sorry). i was just annoyed at the time cos i had been playing well and really thought we could win it. glad to hear amanda is better than we thought. at least it was the end of the season so she has all summer to recover and do even better next year!!

beth i totally agree about joe. for those who dont know, the cheshire squad was picked on just 3 practice sessions, all of which were after joe was playing (AND WINNING!!) with me in the greater manchester schools cup and league, leaving poor joseph exhausted for his training sessions. :'(

[GraWade]

unfair, well they set out a table in training of all the matches played, whoever won the most matches, was chosen, the problem with this is, joe had already had a schools badminton match every time before training, and the team was only chosen on 3 training sessions, now a lot of people will agree that joe should have gone, but what can be helped now, but i feel next time the coaches should have a say in it because i know of one coach of cheshire who did not get asked, and maybe the opinions of the coaches should be taken into appriciation next year.

[northumberland]

dats da same wiv us
when wer all ov ur teams piked?

[GraWade]

i think they were all picked by the 1st of march, because that was the day the rankings had to be submitted

[northumberland]

most teams wudov bin piked a while b4 then but northumberland always leave it til the last minute.

[allyM]

i think also that as well as the coaches, the players themselves should have some say or vote in the team, as they normally know who is better than who, because they talk to each other and hear all the goss.

[MrChips]

Our team is decided by players as they have the real inside knowledge.

I certainly had an input into the team and how they played together (Herts)

[GraWade]

yeh i also find that that would be the best choice in picking the team and the way it should play in the tournament itself, because the team will know how everyone is playing with each other!

[northumberland]

very true

[northumberland]

y was nigel tao not in herts team and does anyone no y michelle cheung wasnt there

[GraWade]

but does that mean that we all feel we don't want/need managers anymore?

rumors flie about say that she was resting for six nations, but no certainties, they said she had an injury

[MrChips]

Nige hurt his shoulder and couldn't play in the end

[KnowAll]

Just to let you all know the ICT results are on the BAofE website noe. I assume the reports will be within the next couple of days (maybe on Wednesday if Eric Brown has to go and put them on himself)! Team Challenge U13 and U15 are also up as well as U21 ICC

[Simaframe]

Big well done 2 ulster who finished 10th, mainly thanks 2 r strong 1 & 2 singles girls. R no.1 only lost 1 singles, our no.2 was undefeated in singles. 2gether they only lost 1 doubles 2 Nottinghamshire - 21/19

[northumberland]

it wasnt our team managers that pikd the team. it was sum ov the coaches and ppl involved in our county. our team cudov bin a lot beta f we had our best team there

[allyM]

the team also know if people have hangovers or not, while the team managers are never gonna find that out. also, players should not be MADE to go to meals, as we'r not thick, we know we have to eat, and it wastes so much time collecting as a team and going across for a meal and then no one wants to leave first, so we just sit there for ages. and if we'r tired in the morning and not playing till 12.30, sleeping and jaffa cakes is better than not sleeping and school dinner standard sausage and bacon.

ulster u rock, even ur 5th girl was better than all our last groups girls!

[GraWade]

yeah, ulster played well. Beating us on points, barely loosing out to warrickshire on points aswel! congrats to them

[northumberland]

2 respond 2 the ulster person i only lost 1 game.

[Simaframe]

Thanks. We would have defeated Warickshire but 4 the fact that r no.1 singles girl Chloe Magee doesn't play on sundays.

[GraWade]

yes we heard about that, slightly unfortunate really. Wish we had played you on the sunday, lol.

[northumberland]

y she not play on sunday?

[Simaframe]

i think we just beat u on points, i lost 2 fearns in 1st singles, played ok. We were unfortunate not 2 finish in 5-8th as we lost 2 essex by 2 points.

Sarah - religious reasons.

[GraWade]

yeh, fearns was doing well, is getting back to the form which should take him to number one in my opinion.

[Simaframe]

how did he do against Dunlop, he tanked me.

[allyM]

peter fearns is so cool. yeah man. he rocks. if he trained for it he could beat our tom.
he played mixed agenst us tho so there was no tanking of peter.

[MrChips]

I got 7 off Dunlop last year!!!!

[allyM]

well done david! i bet he came off court and people asked "how hard were u playin" and he goes "erm about 10%?"
are u william's bro btw? cos he is a great player. and he's one of them that doesnt let it get to his head too.

[GraWade]

pete didnt play tom, he wasnt feeling well at all on the saturday and didnt fully recover for the sunday, but he is training hard to get his fitness up, and is very determined to be the number one. would have been a good game though, tom vs peter!!

p.s peter Fearns does rock

[Simaframe]

Fearns beat Scott Evans didn't he. Scott's knee was screwed up all weekend.

[GraWade]

yeh he did.i think he hurt it in that game.

[MrChips]

I am indeed Will's brother. He's very good, I admit it and probably better than me. I'm annoyed that he's not on WCS or anything cos he could have been world class.

All this from his brother!!

[GraWade]

i think alot of people should have been on WCS and they didnt pick people for silly reasons. while in the first year i could beat a lot of people who were put on WCS and was not once selected. yes your brother is a very talented player, and seems the type who would have benefitted enormously from it.

[allyM]

lol i know that must be hard for you! my brother quit playing when i beat him and said it was a girls game! i find it hard to believe he's not on wcs considering how good he is and how well he's been playing with anthony moye. but when you get to the older age groups its harder to be on world class because they drop the number to so few. sometimes it seems harsh how they give people so much hope and then just rip it away and make them feel like rejects.

[coops]

it is sad, altho i would guess it comes down to money in the end - they invest a lot at junior level and then simply can't afford to keep them all on.

the only way forward for these people is to fund themselves and get coaching elsewhere.

[MrChips]

There's nothing to stop anyone from playing for england in the future.

Hard work can pay off - I'm still thinking about it!

Well, maybe.

[GraWade]

think about colin haughton, admittedly amazingly talented, only picked up at racket at 16!!

[allyM]

sometimes you have to think that even if the WCS players are the best, if others rise to almost top level on their own legs, how would they be if they had been given the WCS treatment?
do u think we'v gone "off topic" yet? i mean it was called ICT '04...

[befoni]

heya ppl, yeh ulster kinda wud have whooped our ass if they had their top 2 players, but we still beat ches and lanc fair and square.

:D well this fing bout WCS and WCP is all pretty pants, i think that ali is rite and that it gives ppl too much pressure to perform and stuff, but there was that guy... duno his name, beat andy ellis and has been asked for WCS a loada times and he turned um down, now that must rock...lol

[ADZ1]

OI OI PEOPLE, just to clue everyone up, we caned lincs on the last day so bucks came 6th. Michelle said she had twisted her ankle AND was resting for the six nations. Sorry to everyone for acting a prat on the disco, but it was pretty dam funny. The sexy beast Dave hardman robbed my shoes, big un. this ICT was quality we equalled our best ever result from last year without michelle (and with the seeding of our boys all messed up) but i hate to imagine if we had her we could have possibly got in top four, but who knows. Shout out to everyone i know

[Daveybwoy69]

Ah word up Adam Francis. you were a bit drunk and nearly had a fight with your manager but hey your young. That was quite a good ict. Essex came, but really should have came 6th but all the players were knackered. Sarah Walker was quality, also caroline they did really well considerin there under 15. Hello to all the boys who at the disco wit us you no who u are. I'm def going next year to coach. So i can see my little irish girl

[ADZ1]

ahah!! the big one dave hardman has graced this page. i hard a massiv fight with my manager seeing as he wrenched me by my chain leaving a mark, big mistake, not needed. i shud have got on the mic and mc d but was a bit too gone for that. i kept getting told that i was after beating in mark ashton, that was proper random and people kept coming up to me saying when u gona start on him haha!!! dave my best boy, bucks came 6th not u eh?

[Daveybwoy69]

Adam my big man. you were a bit gone i must say and who was that bird you got with she was pretty fine bwoy! did you like my irish girl big un. She was lovely. Mark Ashton ha that would have been funny. Mr Alex Felton was boy he got wit old Jenny W from Yorks good on him. Ad we had a few beers at the uni first so was all good. All the boys have to come down soon in summer. Essex is the place to be.

[ADZ1]

that was sarah from surrey, she was alrite eh, bless her though shes got a rep of getting wiv me at the ict poor girl. i agree any of the big cheeses that me dave and alex like are all comin down to essex, including the irish. of course i like her mate we got busted in her room early sat morning haha. well i had nowt against mark dont know the kid but it was just funny evryone comin up to me sayin when am i gonna go knok him out. Everyone was looking good at the disco i feel bad wont going back. Dave u had a gud time coz i forced u to stay haha. Cheers to all organisers to dont think it could of been done without ya

[BadmintonsBest]

Dave mate, not like you to be on the razzle! How did it go? Should of come really, Jacks was a bit poor and nothing really there...how long you stay for in the end?
And Alex got old of Jen? lol, good lad...better than last year mate? Adam, sorry you ad to put up with him, he wasnt meant to be there but he decided to drive up on the Thursday (?). Anyway, i agree with Dave Essex is the place to be, so get down here and we'll take ya all to basvegas! Dave, let me know when your next up Basvegas mate and i'll come wid ya!

[Sammy]

We had to play Essex twice and beat them both times. Could not get away from them as they were in the same block as us but what a nice bunch.

[Sammy]

It was my first ICT and it was brill.
Yorkshire were too strong this year but watch out for Lincs in the next two years.

[BadmintonsBest]

Sa, you got that right. We know how to have a good laugh!!

[suffolkgirl]

it was my first ict too and it was soooo much fun. We may not hav dun too well but we were damn loud

[Cat]

dave who was the irish girl u were with??!

[suffolkgirl]

hey essex ppl!!!!!!

[flamingjam]

the ICT was great this year the best bits as u all say were off court play for derbyshire though n we have to drive every day !!!!!arrgghhh
Bad Luck Notts hahaha u will beat us next year

[suffolkgirl]

does ne1 know how sussex did?

[Daveybwoy69]

hey all, the irish girl was Rachel Hutchinson. What a girl see was. Thoses Lincs lot. Those managers were throwing water at me at 2.00 in the mourning i wasn't impressed at all but they were a laugh.
How r ya matty Ross basvagus here we come. i'll ring ya when i go down.
Ad Francis is a bit of a crazy nutter i must say. Tom Dunlop, and Al felton will no what i mean. Nearly punch the living day light out of the coach funny up to a point.

[biggy]

no1 has mentioned surrey,they did well,they came 5th.only lost to yorkshire.we proved that we had a dg strong team.ICT was very good.

[flamingjam]

Yes good team Surrey we played them in group stages 8-2 score i think

[allyM]

seems weird how u can only lose 1 match and come 5th but if u come 4th u mustv lost 3 matches in the last group. its also weird cos if u come last in ur last group, it feels like uv failed, but if u come first in the group below that, u feel happy and that uv won, but uv come one place lower. strange format

[GraWade]

yes i agree al, there has to be something wrong there!! but anyways of making that better?

[allyM]

no i said strange format, not bad format, cos even if i dont like it, im not gonna say so, cos i cant be bothered tryin to think of a better way of runnin ict. ANYONE ELSE GOT ANY IDEASS??

[GraWade]

i was thinking that, its the bet way of playing that many counties in so short time, if everyone played each other it would become a league, which i suppose wouldnt be to bad an idea to bring in at U17 and run it through the whole yr on a weekly basis

p.s maybe called the I.C.L

[allyM]

it would take a lot to organise that tho, and with so many different times to play each other, counties would always make up excuses about not having players and stuff like that. good idea though, an ICL sounds good to me!

p.s. is anyone in charge of organising listening??

[GraWade]

but they do do it at senior level, so i cant see why it wouldnt work U17, maybe split up into leagues, div 1,2,3

do you not feel it would get people more ready for going into senior level?

[allyM]

yeah, also, the junior game is such a good atmosphere and a great way of meeting new people that it seems harsh on all the u17 players NOT to have something like an ICL!! i think wen we'r in charge we shud make it happen gra.

[GraWade]

yeh i agree. we'll take over an make sure there isnt jus one tournament a year like the ICT

[mikek]

If you introduced a league such as that, then the atmosphere at ICT would be taken away do you not think?

[coops]

the only issue might be that the strength of the teams varies since the age group for U17 is quite narrow, obviously people would come in from the younger team and leave in a couple of years.. so the teams would be of varying standards, difficult to see how a league would work - the university leagues have a similar problem, which is only made worse by people choosing their uni based on which sport they play..

but i do agree is sounds like the format is a bit odd

[allyM]

yes i suppose the ict atmosphere could be diminished, but the ict could be treated like a cup, seperate to the league. that way both tournaments could be run, giving people the atmosphere, and more competative matches, which is what the junior level needs.

alternatively the ICT could be treated like a final for the league, like the playoffs in american ice hockey if anyone knows anything about that...

the junior level does not vary from year to year that much... yorkshire and notts are always strong. anyway, the organisers should be interested enough in the juniors to be able to predict how the counties will perform.

[mikek]

Which counties do you think did better than expected at this years ICT?

[Priddey]

personally i think warwicks did quite wel this year, top 10 wos a realy gd result 4 us

[befoni]

rach i thorougherly agree wit u!!

[GraWade]

personally i think ur an ass.warricks suck, and were lucky, cheshire were the best. p.s beth is the ass, + rach shuda got with ric

[Priddey]

not that we r biased in the slightest hmmmm

[allyM]

yeah i think warricks cud have dun even better if beth hadnt let the team down.

[GraWade]

yeh, beth did play soo bad, i cant belive they selected her, cos shes rubbish, and smells, real bad, but also shes rubbish.

[allyM]

good point there gra, beth does smell. jus kiddin :D

[Priddey]

yeh she did let the team down abit:P and shhhhh graham...u shud hav got wiv kate so ther

[GraWade]

but i got closer than u and ric!!!

[Priddey]

neway, i fink we r gliding away from the actual topic here...dus n e1 no when the shires finals r?

[GraWade]

think its like 15/16 may, cos i cant play, too near gcses, which a few ppl have complained about. but im not certain of that, so anyone who is certain can correct me.

[MrChips]

Shires finals are at babington college, Leicester

[Priddey]

thanx, n e 1 reckon last yrs ict wos beter than this yrs then?

[befoni]

OMG MY COMP IS RUNNIN SLOW!!!!!!! GRA U STINK AND STOP BEIN GAY JUST CUZ U DIDNT PULL AND HAD A MARDY CUZ ITS UR LAST YR AND CAN EVERYONE STOP GANGIN UP ON ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrChips]

For me personally, it wasn't, purely on the basis that I couldn't take part in any of the games.

The atmosphere was immense once again, and it was another amazing year - it always will be, and i think it will hold fond memories for anyone that took part. There isn't anything quite like it.

I did enjoy seeing my team-mates from last year reach the finals though (yes, I am jealous because we came 5th last year and i got no medal), and I did roar my heart out for them!

[GraWade]

gd for your team. was the standard as good this year as last year? i wasnt good enough for the last two year, 6th man both times, darn.

[MrChips]

Awwwww! leave Beth alone!!

[Priddey]

i thort hampshire did realy wel this year, hannah and lauras game was realy gd 2 watch.

[GraWade]

beth is a lovely girl and did play well at ict, and warricks deserved to beat us!!! hate to admit it though. still 11th for cheshire was gd

[befoni]

gra just cuz u cant put up a deska nd u lie.. adn u cant play badminton, and rach ses she hates u!! lol

[GraWade]

rachel wouldnt say that, anyways, ok so everyone beat us, including bucks, and warricks, we stil came 11th.

[befoni]

OMG GRA U ARE OUTA LINE!!!!!
U HARSH BAST!!!
AND UR SAD CUZ WE BEAT U!!!!!!

[GraWade]

i was actually very gutted when we lost to you!!

[ADZ1]

people people join a chat room somewhere and stop filling this up with crap, i think i was a bad as beth this year, sept didnt get sent home !!!

[befoni]

u shudnt be ur too crap to win nehtin

[MrChips]

Adam u legend howr u? He's right guys, even if this is all slightly badminton orientated.

[befoni]

adam for ur infomation, u were worse than me, cuz although my manager caught me, i wasnt strangled, lol

[coops]

yeah come on, it's only a game at the end of day.

[ADZ1]

David ur my hero about what u said at the beginning about favouritsm in the teams, lets do what these guys r doing and having a chat eh?! nah maybe not. wel don the herts people pity it was a possiblty 4 us to get ther if we had michelle, i think i might go and lob my racket at her haha! only jokin. Graham bucks beat u to so have that one and smoke it.

[GraWade]

yeh 7-3...did u only play jamie in one match against usw aswel? or my imagination?

[ADZ1]

graham it dont matter coz i beat jamie easy so its me u had to worry about hahaha, but i played crap so never mind!! Beth although i wa strangled i think he might have got worse off me dont you think, big un!!

[flamingjam]

favouritism i can realate 2 coachs son played ahead of me cos hes coachs son had 2 prove myself to loads of people just to get in at number 5 as the coach 8s me ps what did everyone think cud be done 4 next year what was good or bad this year

[mikek]

Which squads do people reckon are going to suprise a few people next year at ICT?

[befoni]

hey gra!!

[Priddey]

I dont think there will be many suprises next year, well not in the top 5 anyway, alot of the top teams replace their old players with just as good players,i wish warwicks had that much depth!(as im sure a lot of counties do)

[coops]

i think lancs could provide an upset next year - this is the first year we've played ict for years so we might be better prepared next time round..

[Priddey]

don't alot of the lancs players move up this year though?

[mikek]

also i believe cheshire v lancashire if it happens next year will be a closer game

[GraWade]

yeh but lancs do have a lot of players coming up, i think they will be above cheshire next year.Who do warricks have next year?who do they loose this year?

p.s i played in the game this year and we didnt expect it to be that much difference, we thought it could come down to the 10th (cheshire vs lancs that is)

[mikek]

im not so sure i think it will be too close to call!

[GraWade]

who will be the boys for lancs next year?

[Priddey]

Warwicks lose channy,cath and paul, will be missed, but we do gain fontaine which should make our girls team alot stronger in my opinion. sense abit of rivalry there between lancs and cheshire...thats the way we like it!

[GraWade]

yeh, but who replaces paul? i think cheshire will struggle on boys next year, we loose me, pete fearns, graham priestly, joe.

[mikek]

To be honest i don't know the only one i know is Darren Hosegood

[coops]

we lose a few but we gain some and keep some as well. the way it is now we have a lot of youngsters to choose from so i can only see us going from strength to strength.. - was looking at the old results - lancs was on top a long time ago - mebbe we can get back there..

Darren plays for lancs :o)

[mikek]

but i think the Cheshire boys will still be stronger than the Lancashire boys because Tom Dunlop will have gone and some others not sure who?

[GraWade]

alisdaire mc cork, james malarky, and tom. there the boys leaving lancs. but cheshire loose 3 aswell, so i think it depends on the replcements.

[coops]

i'm not entirely sure who have coming up apart from Mike Dorans, who is the same age as amanda and is improving just as well - recently he's started taking games of james Mullarkey. i just hope he keeps improving. we don't have anybody like Tom - he's a one in million. i hope he goes on to great things.. he's already making headway up the senior tables

[GraWade]

pete fearns only lost one game this week i think. He has started training almost fully now after coming back from an injury, so we might be seeing him in the future as well.

[mikek]

I think its going to be close if the two counties play each other next year might be one to watch!

[GraWade]

we were hoping for it too be close this year, but im confused why it wasnt as close as predicted.

[coops]

i wasn't there but i've heard a no. of the lancs lads/lasses were hungover - plus amanda getting injured as well so i'd guess we gave some games away

[mikek]

I think the main reason people thought it would be close is because of Tom Dunlop! because to be honest as close as people thought it was going to be i always felt Cheshire would win as they seem to have more depth!

[GraWade]

well...i was with them the night before...cant say they were sobre...bu they did seem ok in the morning. yeh its a shame about amanda

[befoni]

and we mite loose the brill handal...goin bk to indonesia i think

[coops]

aye - she was in the club end of season singles final next tuesday too - probably would have walked it in my opinion as well.. oh well - there's always next year - altho i think they'll handicap her out of it next time..

[Priddey]

oo i heard about that aswell, but i thouht we were meant to be keeping it shh!

[GraWade]

this is ict related, but more general. what do york and Notts do different? or is it just a period of time where they have good players? is there training different?

[lauraw]

hey im from lancs n i reakon the boys will b darren hosegood,paul mcquire (who beat rich morrisey n nearly beat alex) david kenny whos improving loads, tom huggen who was on this yr (who got 16 points of chris adcock at rio) erm tom monk whos minted at singles mike dorrans could be a possiblility or even danni dickinson, im sooo lookin 4ward 2 nxt yr!!!!!!! whoooo!! im well lookin 4ward 2 playing cheshire nxt yr n hopefully it will be a betta gaem than this yr... but can i say the team spirit was amazing in lancs n every1 got on so well and every1 played out of their skins! so well dun from me :) XxXX

[coops]

my best guess is that it's to do with catchment area - if you look at the best counties in the senior ranks they have quite a wide catchment area

if yorkshire have been on top for a while it wouldn't surprise me if lancs make their way up the tables over the next few years now that they've expanded to take in gtr manchester and merseyside...

[GraWade]

hey laura, nice to see you contributing. what do u think went wrong against us, because we all thought it was going to be closer, even me and you!

do you think that will help cheshire too? with that merge of G.M an mersyside

[mikek]

So what will be the Cheshire team be next year because everyone has been talkin about the lancashire team next year i would like to know what team will be likely to play against it?

[GraWade]

boys : Richard morrisey } certainties
alex bright }
the others i think could be in with a chance : will donnely, ben fearns, danny allcock, maybe sam bright, and i think theres a few coming up who im not too sure on the names.
girls are pretty much the same, gill Dabek, lucy hunter, zara rahman, pippa. not too sure who the 5th will be.

[mikek]

So how do they compare with the lancashire team in terms of ability?

[GraWade]

i think they might stuggle in the depth we had this year where pretty much the whole team was the same standard, but i think there might b a big drop from 3rd to fith. girls will be a good weapon to have though.

[mikek]

but what i mean is if you were to play the two teams as you would predict them how would each team get on?

[GraWade]

its a tough one, the girls would win for cheshire, but the boys will win i think for lancs. so i think that it will be a tough match to call, could come down to mixed.

[allyM]

Lancs would win the guys cos they have a lot more guys who wud be u17 next year, and altho the cheshire guys are good, they are younger, smaller and not strong enough. Apparently there are about 10 guys of the right age competing for ict places at lancs, while the cheshire team will have to rely on a lot of younger players. Also tony mordaunt mentioned something about coaching lancs again and that would be amazing for them. I think the cheshire girls could do some damage tho with zara, gill and lucy.

I think both teams might not do quite as well as this year tho, as neither has any u17 england standard players next year, tho gill zara and laura should b gettin close.

[mikek]

i didn't see either of the two lads from Cheshire you mentioned playing i don't think!

[GraWade]

yeh, and someone mentioned earlia on this thread that if a team has strong girls and weaker boys then its better than vice-versa, but the girls will be a force to look out for. i agree about chshire boys, dont look very strong. lancs look threatening.

richard and alex both played. Richard played singles against darren and lost 21-20. but alex missed out on the lancs ches because of his feet.

[mikek]

ok.just a point to make to ally m you said that there was a lot of people challenging for ICT places next year but are these people the standard of the players from cheshire?

[allyM]

To be fair tho, cheshire is more of a posh area, with a bit more of a responsible attitude. so i think ur guys are more likely to stay sober, which was a bit of a problem for lancs this year.

[mikek]

ha. i see. Im definately going to try watch that match if it occurs in next years ICT

[GraWade]

hey, it didnt stop me from drinking. and too be fair, worsley aint a poor area al!

[Loz]

[allyM]

wel i didnt drink and im the only guy livin in worsley so do u see my point?

joseph was unlucky with the selection procedure. he was tired from playing and winning school matches with me before every training session in which games were played to decide the cheshire team.

[GraWade]

look at page 7 mate. or listen to ally.

[GraWade]

yeh but i drank an im from cheshire :=p
not hale though, i live in the so solid massive of altrincham!! but i do get ur point my friend. everyone should have to drink and have no choice!!

[coops]

lol - you haven't seen the north of lancs ally - we're all a bit posh up here - :o) jk.. it's bound to happen, you should see the state of most of the players at BUSA individuals on finals day... it's shocking..

[allyM]

is alex still mad at you for sayin joe being left out was unfair? cos that totally wasnt a stab at his dad. it was jus sayin that it should have been taken into account that joe was tired. by the way, we won the cup and league with school, so he has a real excuse to be tired as well. Dave Bright did a great job with the cheshire team.

[GraWade]

yeh he is still mad. that statement i made on page 7 was totally ligit, and was an answer to why i feel joe wasnt picked, and i was simply suggesting maybe the coaches should have been asked, not that it was daves fault. Dave (bright) the manager of cheshire did a great job, and everyone on the team was pleased how he did the job, we all were pleased with the position, so thanku Dave for all the effort put in! U did great!

[allyM]

sorry mike i didnt see ur point to me before.
considering my standard last year and how i am now, as long as they put effort in, the lancs guys should be anywhere between the cheshire guys standard and england players.

[mikek]

fair enough!wasn't making a point just asking whether these 10 that you mentioned were good enough.

[GraWade]

i agree. The amount al has improved in unbelievable. i feel ive improved as well, i have had to to keep up with u ally, but if anyone really wants to, and can put the time in, they can can be gd, i jus dont have the facitlities.

[Simondo]

I knew joe from last yr and i think it was a great shame he wasn't there. Seems to be a bit of friction. Is Dave alex's dad by any chance?

[Sammy]

Jason Marshall and Craig Simpson were ace for Lincolnhire and Jason and Sue played superb against Fearns and Dabek in the mixed doubles

[GraWade]

simon, yeh he is his dad, doesnt take anything away though, the team was chosen fair and square. not saying i didnt want joe in the team, but it was done the fairest way posible.

samantha, yes i watched that game, they did play well, exposed gills weaknesses well and cut pete out as well as pissible.

[allyM]

thanx gra. i thought i almost had u but evry time u jus get a jump ahead. same with joe. i think everyone has improved loads since i first started.

[Sammy]

Jason and Craig only lost one singles each at Ict

[GraWade]

pete fearns didnt loose any! :=P

did tom loose any al?

[allyM]

no not singles. he lost some doubles though and a mixed to chris adcock when we got batterd 10-0 by notts. shouldv played singles there really to at least get a game.

[KnowAll]

Unfortunately Neil I know the junior players well and I think the Lancs performances will get worse before they get better. The players next year to replace the likes of Tom are not good enough im afraid to compete at the top end of ICT. It will before another 3 years I reckon before they challenge. They have a good crop of curent under 14s: Gary Fox, Ross Little and Michael Mellor are all on WCS and their U13 team just came 3rd in the team challenge so it could bve their year in 3 or 4 years time if the player scontinue to develop

[Sammy]

Peter Fearns didn"t play singles against Lincs why?? He may well have lost to Jason.

[anna]

id just like to say that i thought the ict was good this year and well done to the organisers!! also well done to surrey who came 5th!!! :o)

[allyM]

peter was ill all weekend and he's not been well for a while now, losing weight and everything which is a shame cos he's cool and should be the best. thats why he didnt play singles against your jason or our tom.

[Sammy]

Hope you are better soon Pete

[befoni]

yeh peter didnt luk v well, thats probs y ches beat lancs in dat game, of guys doubles, he went to bed early on the sat whereas tom and darren were a lil hapi the nite b4 and didnt get much sleeep.

[lmu]

First of all well done cheshire on coming 11th considering that we haven't had a team in the ICT for the last couple of year.

However, one thing that does bother me is the way that the team was selected. There can be no arguements with some of the players being picked (i.e. Pete) others on the otherhand i think have been lucky to have been pick which leaves other unlucky to be left out. Joe should of be playing, but also Craig Johnson should have gone as he is stronger than one of the boys that was picked...FACT, the results from the cheshire restricted prove this.

At the beginning of the season my dad(also Craigs dad) was asked to be team manager for cheshire, but he turned it down because his son was one of the players that was in consideration for the team. The place was then offered to another parent, who then selects his son over not only my brother but Joe.
I just think a different manager should of been picked (i.e. an un-biased party)

The other things that gets me is that my brother was told that the 'strongest' team was picked, which in managers opinion was, but i don't think that having Joe or Craig in the team would of weakened the team at all and in my opinion would of strengthened the team. Both Alex bright and Richard Morrisay can/will be playing it the ICT next year, meaning they will both get to experience a tourament of this scale again where as Craig and Joe have lost out on due to some suspect selections.

Theres to much politics to team selection and the only way that i could see disapointment being avioded to a certain extent was to let Joe and Craig play this year as 2 of the lads will beable to play nexy year, that way everybody gets to experience ICT.

[coops]

yeah, team selection of any sort always has some degree of politics and emotion - sad but true.

at our club currently the new club captain implemented a more empirical method that involved using match stats and the end of season tournament results. however there are always new people and he was forced to make the selection based on one night of trials. to cut a long story short this method didn't work well either - some people play badly on that one night and others play out of their skins, skewing the data somewhat. So you see some human judgement does come into play. however i think that it should never be one persons decision, there should be a few people choosing the team at all time -i'm sure most counties have more than one coach and that way the team could be chosen by committee, reducing any individual bias that may be applied (knowingly or unknowingly).

[PeteG]

Yeah absolutely, there should be no bias, or as little bias as possible when it comes to team selection!
Having a parent involved always makes it tricky, unless they are purely going as support staff and have a separate coach to make the selection.
Of course, its not completely straightforward, because it depends on form. I went to the ICT in '97 as our county's no.2 singles player, even though I had been playing below him and hadn't beaten him. However we both played the same guy in a couple of matches and results wise I was regarded as putting in more effort and also had better results than him. I did subsequently justify my positioning by beating him in the u21 tournament the week after the ICT.
So yeah, it can come down to form sometimes. There is also the case of who is going to play what. You need a reasonably versatile team. There may be players lower down the order who are stronger singles players than other potential players, but may be stronger at doubles and are picked because they will play the doubles events.
That said, I still think what sounds like parental bias in the case of Cheshire is absolutely wrong and that if someone is picked ahead of another player there should always be justification behind that selection.

[alexb]

Paul, i'd love to know where you got these facts from!Firstly, the cheshire restricted, me and richard both made the semi final which is better than how craig did.Secondly how you can say Craig should have been there,when my dad and John Dabek decided before the ICT training started that it was so close in standard the only fair way they could possibley select a team was to go on who won the most matches and this is fact was Peter,Graham p, graham wade, Richard and myself all won more matches than craig or joe.
Also as for your little stab at my dad if one of the parents weren't to select a team who would have voluntered to do it!? and on the subject of peter fearns and the rest of the team for that matter we are all extremely grateful my dad had run that team because he put a lot of time and effort into the ICT more than i presume your dad would have done and i would also love to know where you got your information, Craig himself?
If you would like any other opinions on it just look to the rest of the Cheshire team that were at ICT!

Also Craig's brother i didn't see you at any of the training sessions so how would you know?
On the subject of having other coaches to pick the team both John Dabek and Jack Mccaigue agreed this was the strongest team, John being an un-biased source as was Jack who is a Cheshire veteran!

So next time you post something on here make sure you get the facts correct because i think that the only thing that is bias is the fact you think your brother should have gone!

[befoni]

well i think wut is dun is dun, and u cnt make any changes now. i also think that older players of similar standard to younger players shud have gone, but i cant realli judge as i dnt realli kno the team players.

i also think that all counties have similar disputes, and i think both craigs bro and alex have there sides, hu wud have volenteered to take the team, yet how can they be unbiased. i duno...

[lauraw]

HeY everyone! 4 once i actually agree with beth :) u cant do anything about it now so i think everyone ahem (paul jhonson) should stop bitching about everything. the fact is cheshire did really well, and everyone on the team held their own, there wasnt one person who looked out of place,of course there will be people who are dissapointed because they didnt get on ict but u cant bitch about the people that did get on and who got cheshire a wicked position. so my advice is ... just chill :)

[englishGIRL]

[spoon]

alex sim who r ya. wat score u lose to handal amd tom. yea scotts knee was in bits.

[GraWade]

hey. The team was selected on a fair basis. And i don't understand what results you are looking at from the restricted? the team picked fair and square, dave bright was an excellent manager and did so well with the team, he put time and effort in. i don't understand where you get the results of the restricted from? all the team did do better than craig in it? if your talking about the doubles final where he palyed with Richard then, that doesnt show anything except they had an easier draw because they lost in the final anyways. The team has been picked, the tournament is over now, what can be helped if your brother didn't get on? it was picked in the fairest way possible.

[lmu]

firstly,I'm not taking anything away from the cheshire team that went, as the results show they did very well. whats done is done

Secondly, there is always going to be conflict when people close to you are involved, hence why Alex supports his dads view and i support by brothers/dad view. Thats fine, i would be suprised if we did agree.

Thirdly, Like you said, i have't seen the squad train because i'm at uni and it's a bit of a way to travel. But my dad has been there and i trust what he has to say (he is also a county vet), but as i'm sure your all comment on this is a baised view

Fourth, I'm not going to comment on the results from the Shires league or the. restricted. The results speak for them selves. Read into that how you please

To Alex, i think you took my comment about Pete out of context. All i was saying is that there is no doubt that he would be selected or Graham P for that matter as there both playing for the senior team. I wasn't having a good at ya dad as it appears you think i was.
I have no problem with the way that ya dad ran the team in Nottingham, and from what i've heard, he did a very good job, so fair play to him.

people are always going to have there own views on team selection, and like i said before, when people close to you are involved things become biased and this can blur judgement. The only thing i can say is that we agree to disagree.

On that note i'll stop, i don't want to be seen as bitchin now, do i.

[alexb]

Fair enough! all i am saying is that basically i don't deserve to be treated like this, i worked very hard to get into that ICT team and when people say i should not have been there is slightly unfair, firstly you say we can look into the results of the shires league i never played in a match when craig was playing so how can you compare! and also on the subject of your dad being there to watch the training, i hardly saw him the only 2 people who knew how everyone performed in training are my dad and John Dabek, who BOTH selected the team.
Can you please tell me what the restricted results were because i can only conclude that you are mixing competitions up because as ive already said me and richard got further than craig.

[lmu]

I'm not saying that you didn't deserve to go, because there were obviously reasons why you were picked.
But both your dad, my dad, me and yourself as well as anybody else involved is going to have slightly biased views, thats a fact. In a situation like this there is no way that a clear judgement can be made.

For example, my dad and myself see my brother play all the time, we see him when he plays well and when he doesn't. Your dad see's the same things with you. So he knows what sort of standard your at. If he see's you at training and your having an off day, then your dad can see your having and off day and knows that you don't normally play like that. This is exactly the same with myself, dad and my brother.

Alex, it's important u know i'm not having a go at u or ya dad. Difficult decisions have to be made, and he made what he considered the best team. Thats fine

If i was picking the team i would of picked
Pete
Graham P
Graham W
Joe and Craig

ONLY because yourself and Richard can play next year where as Joe and Craig can't. Although if yourself and Richard couldn't play next year then it would be a difficult one to call.

Sorry if comment have been taken out of the context that they were meant

[GraWade]

hi paul. have you seen the whole team play? Did you watch the restricted?nothing meant by this, i just want to see whether you have seen everyone from the team play?

[lmu]

I have seen all the team play, but no it wasn't at the restricted.
I do however have some of the results from the resticted.

Craig lost to Graham Wade in the quaters singles.

And Graham went on to win the singles

In the doubles group match

Craig and Richard morrisay lost 15 - 8 to pete and ben

I believe Graham Wade and Alex bright lost game love to Pete and Ben in the semi's

Craig and Richard lost 17 - 15 to Graham P and Andy brown in the other semi. Who lost 15 - 8 in the final to Pete and ben.

In the mixed Craig and Amy lost to Richard and Lucy in the semi.

Graham and Gill then won the final against Richard and Lucy.

This conversation is getting pretty tirsome now. What is done is done. ICT has come and gone, the team selected performed well and they should be proud of that. As i've said before, i'm not taking anything away from the team that played in Nottingham.

[confusedplayer]

im confused..i've read the whole discussion- but people seem to be changing their opinions. graham wade- near the beginning, you said about your team selection " unfair, well they set out a table in training of all the matches played, whoever won the most matches, was chosen, the problem with this is, joe had already had a schools badminton match every time before training, and the team was only chosen on 3 training sessions," - this sounds like you were not happy with the way that your team was picked- yet now you say that your team was picked "on a completely fair basis" ... why are you changing your opinion so drastically now?

[lmu]

I haven't changed by view on things, if it appears that way sorry for the confusion.

What i did say is that the team that actually went did well, thats not to say i think it was the best team, but thats my opinion.

Like someone said in an earlier posting,we should all chill out and stop argueing about somethin that can't be changed. The best thing we can do is carry on enjoying playing and look forward to next season

On a brighter note, it shows what sort of depth the county has which can only be a good thing.

Thats me done on the matter of cheshire and the ICT,

Take it easy people.

[GraWade]

sorry, i said that in the wrong context, because someone before had said that it was unfair. so i was meant to say well is unfair setting out the selection this way, i didn't mean to say it was unfair. sorry for not being clear enough.

[flamingjam]

all counties can have problems with selection but in nearly all squads if u ask the players they will say that they had the confidense in the manager and the job they did. Brain (derbyshire) has been comitted to the county for 14 years and 3 of his daughters represent england never mind county. His willingness to do the ICT helped many players and without people like him in the counties these great events wouldn't be the same.

[suffolkgirl]

our county didn't hav too much problem wiv selection particularly for the girls as there aren't many girls in th squad anyway

[coops]

to tie this in with james' other post.. where there any racquet brands/ clothing brands that were predominant over the ict. do you think this reflects on the badminton equipment market as a whole?

[MrChips]

Unfortunately Yonex are a monopoly when it comes to badminton equipment, and I saw a fair amount of Yonex equipment at ICT. And I'm just as guilty as the next person for using Yonex.

Before I get all economical, the yonex stranglehold on the market means that the other brands, bar Carlton, fail to try anything new and are just producing carbon copies (no pun intended) of yonex racquets because they just don't have the profits to invest.

And the only way to remove Yonex (in theory) is by creating a new monopoly product that is better, in order to replace the existing monopoly.

Well I tried to restrain myself. Sorry, if that sounds like gibberish to you all.

Before i go any further and write an essay on monopoly, are there any other economists out there that can also analyse this situation?

And that would be yes, I do think a predominant brand will impact the market!

[coops]

hehe, spose it's a microsoft and the rest situation. mebbe they'll done the same way for using their market share to inflate their own prices...

[flamingjam]

Large numbers use the yonex rackets me mp99 partner mp88 out of ten six players used yonex the rest carltons and ashaway

[PeteG]

Also look at the initial base of operations for Yonex and the surrounding nations, in terms of culture, Yonex understand these cultures far better than other companies coming from different countries. For example most of the time Chinese players will wear red or yellow on their kit. Partially due to their national colours no doubt, but also there are psychological associations to colour that stem from Chinese culture which aren't apparent to the west.
For example, blue would not be a good colour to use in China as it portrays negative characteristics. Black represents power, for example, yellow is something like wealth and prosperity and red is something along the lines of power again, or something like that. I can't remember off hand, although if anyone is interested pm me and I can dig up the references at a later stage.

[Daveybwoy69]

come again peter you want to put that in short hand, not being horrible but i nearly fell asleep reading that.