the man to beat?

[biggy]

the main event at athens in the badminton is definately the men's singles.so I pose this question, who will be the man to beat at athens?who is your favourite to pick up the olympic title?

In my opinion, if chen hong is at full fitness he is a mighty player who is very dificult to play and beat.he hasn't been on great form but I think that is because he is in his olympic training and he will peak for the olympics.

also peter gade is the ebst european chance and so is kenneth jonassen.not too sure though.my money would be with chen hong.

[Badboy]

Lin Dan, the boy looks red hot even when not on form

[coops]

yeah, agree with matt - the only people that might be able to challenge him, depending on their form & fitness at the time are xia xuanze and peter gade.

if lin dan peaks at the olympics tho i can't see anybody defeating him - even tho gade took him to three sets.

[biggy]

yeah but xia xuanze hasn't qualified, if chen hong is on form he is easily the best player in the world by far.

[coops]

oops - i'm thinking of when xia was world champ last year.. he seems to be experiencing a horrible drop in form at the mo. chen hong hasn't been very sharp since he was beaten by shon at the worlds last year - gade beat him at the all england this year.. at the worlds last year he was raved about, but i think he was like every other chinese player - just come thru the ranks - experiencing a peak in form, and then that peak ended and he went back into the huge group of top class mens singles players. lin dan is at his peak at the mo - i just wonder if he can hold it till the olympics.. it will come down to who is on form at the time.. - it always does.

[molly]

I think that depending upon the draw the final shall be gade and lin dan. And gade shall beat lin dan as he has played him many times now and each time he has come closer to beating him as in the korean open a couple of weeks ago he wont he first game to 9 and was then 8-0 up in the second but lost his concentration. I think that gade will be back to full fitness for the olympics and shall win it as lately he seems to be getting back to the form which he showed before having the operation on his knee.

[CATWEAZLE]

Dont forget Wong Choon Hann, a player not in form at the moment but a wonderful bloodhound of a player, if he is playing well he will be tough to beat.
I must agree though that I believe the mens singles will go to China, one way or another.

[rickys]

I'm going to agree with Michael here about Wong Choon Hann, but I favour Lin Dan over Chen Hong.

Why, I've watched Chen & noticed similarities between his movement & racquet skills as the great Zhao Jianhua. But & there's a big BUT here, he has a similar Achilles heel. Zhao use to get dispirited against players like Foo Kok Yeong of Malaysia who was able to blunt his attack. In fact Foo in the end managed to defeat Zhao almost every time as he found Zhao’s weakness. Chen is similar in this respect. I saw him loose in the quarter-finals a few years ago to the big Korean Shon Seung Mo who managed to blunt Chen's attack and I've seen this pattern of play from Chen on a few occasions now.

I have to say that it was good to see Peter Gade in the All-England final & taking Lin Dan to 3 but to be honest and as much as I admire Gade (a fan of the great legend Zhao Jianhua), I think Lin Dan is the man on form for me & he proved this in this particular final. One set down & he didn't give up or become dispirited against a player who was world no.1 not so long ago & with more experience. This is Chen's downfall I feel and Lin's strong point. In fact I’ve watched Lin come up over the last few years and I saw him beat the very player Chen lost to (mentioned above) in the All-England 2001(2002?) quarter-finals.

However, having said all that above, I’d love to see Peter Gade beat all the Chinese and return to the form he had a few years ago. Come Gade!!!

[biggy]

Chen Hong is an awesome player and no-one can takr that away. He has the best movement around the court in the game today. He moves like Zhao Jianhua but has his own style mixed in which is very efficient and successful. He was the best player in the world for over a year and then suffered an injury which he hasn't fully recovered from.I think that when Athens comes Chen will be back at full fitness and he will be easily the best player there.

Lin Dan is also a good mover and is very fast but Chen has the same weapons as Lin but they are far more effective. Chen has the best jump smash and his angles are incredible. Lin dones't use angles as much which can be his downfall.

One player who does use angles well is Peter Gade and Wong Choong Hann. Gade is getting back to his best. Wong Choong Hann is very deceptive and the fastest player in the world but he doesn't tend to settle quickly so he can go down heavily in a game and sometimes it is too late.

Overall I think that a good final would Gade VS Chen Hong.They both use good angles, are fast but I think Chen has the better smash and better angles and is a better mover. It all depends whether Gade is back at full fitness or Chen can handle the mental side as that is his own bad point.Against Shon Seung Mo and the world champs he looked bored in the second game and the start of the third game.

[molly]

I think that Chen Hong is a very good player, the person to be beating at the moment is Lin Dan. Gade is the closest player to come close to beating him at the moment and if the draw goes his way then i think the final should be gade VS lin dan but i think that the semi-finals will be hard matches for both players.

[jamesd20]

Chen Hong isnt similar to Zhao. Zhao used deception and technique to find the oppurtunity to smash. Chen Hong just uses his raw power, this uni dimenional game is his downfall. this can work for a while, but once people sus him out, it can make him vunerable. Chen Hongs defence is very Bad,and netplay is not strong, Hence why he has a 7-1 and 5-0 record against other attacking, skillfull like players peter gade and taufik Hidayat respectivley. Against defensive players (like roslin,lee hyun il) he can win, simply becuase they do not attack him, which is his weakness.

Lin Dan has the best movement on the circuit in my opinion, and is a different type of player, he uses counter attacks to win quick points, and is keen to play the rallies. What seperates him, is his ability to change the pace a the game from a slow defence rally game, to a fast counter attacking game, moreover his mind is very strong, as has been shown by his Ability to keep wininng tournaments, against every player.

So in short, I tihnk Lin Dan. Gade will be there, but is sometimes impatient, and doesnt handle tough pressure situations well. Wong is an outsider, but is definately a chance, providing he can find his form.

[biggy]

James movement not similar because of deception agaisnt raw power?that isn't movement that is hitting style.I know he has poor records against them and his defense has improved but he uses alot of different angles.When he is on top form don't knock him down he is an awesome player.Lin Dan has good movement but ti isn't consistent and the same is with gade but they both use this incosistency well.i still think chen is a formidable opponent and a good bet for the olympic title.

[andys]

Peter Gade is the best. He has the better shots than lin dan but dan gets everything bck!!

[jamesd20]

I think my idea of consistency and yours must differ. I think losing once since the end of september (To bao in japan open)-7months, is my idea of consistent.

I think I will have to agree to disagree with the Zhao comparison. IMHO They are completley different players, the only similarity being a jump smash.

Because CH plays a power game, his angles are actually not as much as Lin, they are much flatter, and so finer. Lins counter attack has variation in faster, and slower drops so uses varying angles. I believe the mark of a good player is being able to change the pace of the game, and maintain control. When CH plays slow, his body moves slow. When lin plays slow his movements are still quicker, this is what puts great players ahead of merely talented players.

For good examples of pace changing during games see any Lin, Kim Dong Moon, Xia, Zhang Ning, Sigit/Candra match. For uni dimensioanl play (power power power) see Chen Hong, Zhang Jun, Chen Quiqu, Lee Dong soo/Yoo Yong Sung.

Cai and Fu are good exponents of the power game at the moment, but if they want to be winning consistently you need to have variety.

[jamesd20]

[biggy]

You bring up good points but if you study CH and ZJ movement it is quite similar.Anyway,Cai and Fu use a lot of power,have great defences,the fastest pair around but what they do have are good stop drops.You'll see them leap up hit a hard smash one rally and the next they'll put a deceptive drop in and fool their opponents who put their base further back.Cai and Fu are the best pair in the world,in my eyes,at the moment and probably will be a good pair that people will remember.

[jamesd20]

Agreed.

But Hope to see Kim/Ha Back at their best, as They have the defence to weaather Cai/Fu Speed of attack, and the experience and tactical play to maneuvre them, and take the edge off (Cai/Fu)their speed. Choong/Lee if they play to their potential (as in AE S/F, and yesterday at Thomas cup)can also beat them, but you couldnt expect them to beat them, as they are inconsistent.Apart from that, other pairs have to hope they have off days.

[rickys]

I have to say that I agree with "NobodyS" on this but I don't totally disagree with you James either.

I would say that Chen & Zhao are very similar - look at their footwork, technique and power. Also, Chen is very deceptive in his overhead game, just like Zhao.

However, I agree Zhao had far more angles. I would also say that they both share similar personalities in game play - see my previous posts, but I do feel that Lin is the better all-rounder, even if his footwork & technique aren't so clinical. Lin does have the angles & the net game, mental strength & focus required to beat the runners & defensive players on the top circuit.

[stuartwardell]

If China and Denmark can get three singles players into the draw like they did at Barcelona then they have to be the favourites for me.
Lin Dan should be the favourite to take the title but you never know what will happen in an event like this.
Look what happened at the worlds?

Chen does play like Zhao and Chen will have the same chance as Zhao did when he played at Barcelona.
Both these players are vunerable against runners however if it was out of pure talent then Chen would win hands down just like Zhao did back in the 90s.
Jamie talks about Lin having great angles, well that is not difficult when you are left handed.
Lastly, if Chen has a crap Defence then there is still hope for us all!!!

[biggy]

Stuart says a good point about left handers.They always have good angles.(yang yang, lin dan, zhao jianhua, wu wengkai)all of them had good angles.Chen is the most talented player and how,if he has got a crap defence,did he get to world number 1 and stay there for over a year which is rare nowadays and in chinese players.Everyone is ruling him out, but why???he is the world number 2 and will have a good draw and if he is on form not many people can beat him. He has to worry about a runner in the semi because that might tire him for the final, and that goes for any attacking player.

[biggy]

I know this a bit late,ricky,but I noticed you said zhao gets dispirited.I don't think he does get dispirited but bored.I've watched him play and he gets very bored on court and when there is a shot he could get but he doesn't go for it because he knows he can get the next point.He doesn't get dispirited,(he doesn't think he can't win because he can)he sometimes gets frustrated but usually he looks bored.

[biggy]

No-one has mentioned Kenneth Jonassen.An awesome and awkward player who has one the best footworks around.He is so efficient and is tall and has great angles.At the world champs he should of beaten the eventual winner,Xia Xuanze,and at this years All England should have beaten Roslin Hashim but squandered to many match points.If he peaks again like at the world's then you could see him up there.

[coops]

mmm - kenneth is an interesting one - i've just never seen him make it stick.. he squandered so many points against xia at the worlds, he could have won the first game. and he almost lost the first game. he is very efficient - i wouldn't say he was awkward - just looks it because he is sooo tall and thin, he isn't built as heavily as the asians, but i reckon he could rally most of them off court, and tire them out.

[PeteG]

Results wise Lin Dan is the best player in the world at the moment, he even seems to be able to coast allowing the opponnent to gain the lead and then take it back quickly. I know Gade's recent results have been good, but Gade seems to have a problem with pressure: World Champs v Hendrawan and another occasion against Fung Permadi, recently in Thomas Cup against Sony Dwi Kuncoro, as well as the previous Olympics.
He seems to do well against Lin Dan, but Lin always seems to pull the game back. According to Thomas Cup reports he was up on Lin during the final and still couldn't close the second set out.

Chen Hong is a very dominant player, but I think as mentioned this depends on him being 100% fit. personally I think that he has lost some of his aura as more players are managing to beat him. However, this does take some of the pressure off him and may make hmi a dark horse for the event.
If Chen Hong appears in the quarter or semi finals, I think we can start talking about him winning then. Until then it'll be a case of see how it goes.

Wong Choong Haan was mentioned earlier in the thread and again there seems to be a problem with him. Misbun Sidek reckons he suffers from putting too much pressure on himself and trying to play the perfect game instead of sometimes just playing. If Wong can sort his head out then maybe he stands a chance, but from the sounds of it, its a big ask.

Li Yongbo the Chinese coach seems to be backing Lin Dan as a player these days and again, judging from his form I wouldn't bet against him winning at the moment!

Information on the above can be found at either www.worldbaminton.net or www.tuc2004.com

[PeteG]

[jamesd20]

I would say Kenneth is thin! For height, I would definitely describe him as lanky.


Lin was only under pressure from gade, cause he relaxes and takes it easy. His strength is his ability to play easy, then turn the switch and win the points. When he was 13-9 down, he was on easy street, then he just got the serve back, and won the points. Gade will never win the olympics, as pete said he struggles with pressure. The two times denmark needed him to win in this thomas cup he lost (against sony and Lin).

Bao Chunlai may come into the equation as a favourite now though, as his battle in the 2nd singles against kenneth was dead exciting at every point. He is known for his fragile mentality, but had he lost that game, he knew his career was almost over (having lost in the previous thomas cup to hafiz) but he won, despite being 15-14 down in the second, and 10-4 down in the third. If he can have the mental strength shown last sunday, then he can win. He is the only player with the tools to beat lin dan at this time. He is more relaxed against LIn because they are friends, and has a good win loss record against him.

I still thin chen wont win, he is another "choker" cant win when is needed, and too predictable in his play.

[biggy]

How the hell is kenneth jonassen lanky?no way,he is not gangly,he is strong and tall and is awkward because he puts the shuttle around the court well and in the right spot and he looks slightly weird around court because he stumbles when coming forward sometimes,if only he could close out games,then he would be a major challenger.

Chen is not a choker,at the worlds(his only major event he has been in)he got bored which cost him.He doesn't choke he gets bored and then his play is ruined.He can't play relaxed like lin dan but he is still a good chance.

[PeteG]

Kenneth is a big guy, he's ex-danish royal guard or military of some sort, so of course he's a big guy, it may not come across on all the pictures of him, but he definitely comes across as big compared to the Asians on TV!!

As for Bao and Lin's win-loss record, I wouldn't read too much into that, as a lot of the Chinese matches are fixed, its not difficult to work out why. Admittedly there are going to be occasions when this is not the case and there have been some exciting 3 setters between the two of them, but even Ronald Susilo was suspicious of Bao beating Lin in Japan I think it was, as Lin was very obviously the player in form.

[rickys]

Hi NobodyS. I’ve heard someone else say that about Zhao but I don’t share that view completely and I’ll explain why.

There were many facets to Zhao’s game and if you watch the classic 1985 AE semi and final against King and Frost, you’ll see a young Zhao who is trying everything to win. You can also sense a hunger to win by the way that he plays. Look how he behaved – very verbal to himself, mimicking shots after he makes a mistake.

Now look at his later matches say circa 1990-1992. There’s a more mature Zhao but now he has an air of arrogance. You almost feel that he feels he has a right to win and so what if he doesn’t, he’s the best player in the world and you over the other side of the court are a normal badminton player! I think that he didn’t like it when other players made him look normal by taking games from him or getting some of his best shots back! Also in later years you’ll see Zhao only really playing shots that make him look good, not trying anything on as he did in 1985 say. He also had a tendency to play some of the most extravagant shots in his later years that really weren’t on.

I’ve read articles on him and yes there’s no doubt that he’d get bored against a runner say, because apparently according to the profiles on him as a youngster, he had a very short attention span and would only do something for so long and would want to move on quickly!

I do feel that when this happened he did get dispirited in a way that made him not bothered about winning! In the end towards late 1991 and into 1992 when he ended his career just shortly after his loss at the Barcelona Olympics, all those players he’d made a monkey of got their own back on Zhao. Ardy, Kusuma, Joko, Foo, Sidek, Susanto, etc and I’ve got those matches on video (except the Olympics that is!).

There’s no doubt that Zhao wanted an Olympic medal but Susanto reduced Zhao to 15-2 in the first set of that game, yes making him look like rubbish, just as he’d done to others previously and you have to remember that was still within the year when Zhao held the World Champion’s title. I’ve heard others say that he peaked in 91 and that may be true as he was quoted as saying that he was still mentally strong but he was beginning to struggle physically. Admittedly when he lost it was usually in three so he didn’t give up that easily and he was never made a monkey of either.

I also feel that Chen Hong is like this. He feels he’s the best and reacts just like Zhao when he plays a runner!

I must admit that the only way to know for sure is to ask the man himself as I’d love to know what was going through his mind at the time. Any of the members on this site from the Far East have any further info on this? Better still, who knows Zhao?

[biggy]

You pose a good point but I also think the arrogance about him was the only way he could play his best.That's how Chen Hong plays because when he thinks he's the best he plays his best and that makes him look arrogant but he isn't.I think Zhao was probably the same.He was around for 7/8 years which was a long time for a Chinese player and still is.I still don't think he got dispirited but was bored of playing the same players over and over for 8 years.Apart from Yang Yang and maybe Thomas Stuer-Lauridsen there were no exciting players around.They were all runners and once Zhao beat them once or twice he must of just got bored.I would of if I was him.But you do give good evidence,I'm not doubting that,I just think he got bored.I think this point shows how runner dominated that era was when allan budi kusuma won the barcelona olympics.

[dlp]

Can I just add that I believe Zhao lost a whole year through pneumonia in 85 in world championship year. He would also have won another AE title if not for chinese team orders.

[CATWEAZLE]

Has everyone forgotten what happened at the the 3 previous Olympics??!!
Not being funny but i believe the same thing could happen again.
Allan Budi Kusuma was having a dreadful year prior to his victory, and Ji Xingpeng had lost first round in all of his previous 4 events. Many believed it was to avoid drug testing, as the first round losers were not tested. Nothing was proved but there was a very rapid change in form come Sydney!!
On both occasions the in form players simply blew out from a long season. Taufik, the top seed, was a shadow of the player he was 3-4 months prior to Sydney. Heryanto Arbi was virtually untouchable prior to Atlanta, but blew it on the day against Hoyer. Ardi Wirinata simply could not lose to Budi Kusuma, it was inconceivable.
I believe that Lin Dan will blow out by Athens, and a relatively fresher Bao and Chen will be there to take the glory.

[rickys]

I liked Allan Budi Kusuma. I thought that he was much better than a lot of other players who were around at that era and I'd say he was one of a few that weren't runners.

Now Arbi was interesting. I've seen him play and he's a clown. Big jump smash, runs quick, no savvy! He thought those attributes alone would win him games but I've seen him & Hoyer + Wu of China beat him because they were more consistent & had better angles, not to mention their game plan, so it was no surprise to me that Hoyer beat him.

Wiranata was another boring player & put him against Foo Kok - those were the most boring matches of that era, both runners.

Bao. What's good about him? He's quite weak in comparison. Lin may very well blow out however, I've seen him climb up over the last 2/3 years so I think he's made the transition at a fair rate. I think he'll be around to be an Olympic champ! I like him he’s not arrogant but 2 years ago I saw him play & he was.

[biggy]

How can you say kusuma wasn't a runner.He was a classic runner.Got shots back and had basic shots.All indonesians are runners with a few good slices,just like joko suprianto.

Bao Chunlai is very good and has sound footwork.Maybe not as strong but has far more varied jump shots from the back than any other player.What other player can play a reverse cut smash on their forhand side.Not many and Bao does it the best.He is a medal contender.

[gazz16]

i agree with tom, but in the final will deffinatly be lin dan, he will be the man to beat 4 me, and i admire his dives.

[rickys]

All Indonesians are runners? I don't agree. That's like saying all English people eat is fish & chips!

Kusuma was basic but he was also an attacking player. You've only seen him playing Zhao where he was mostly at the receiving end. I've seen him win a whole match from Zhao and that was attacking him!

Joko you mention. He wasn't a typical runner either. He was fairly attacking, not to mention after Zhao, I believe he was the World champ in '93! Then there's Hendrawan & Taufik. Are you saying they're runners too, just cos they're Indonesian?

You mention classic runners - I'd put Ardy & Foo in that group!

If you have to generalise, then I would say that the Malaysian school is more one of running & defensive play in singles but that doesn't mean that all Malaysian players are going to be like that.

In fact I would say that Malaysia has currently a very good player in the form of Wong Choong Hann.

Perhaps we mean different things. When you talk about a runner, I'm assuming you mean a player without structured footwork who generally hits the shuttle around the court defensively with the intention of just getting it back.

Bao may have some nice looking shots but under pressure from a more consistent but basic player, he'll loose. I think he'll go out to one of the Malaysians.

Look at the upset we had in the early rounds at this year’s AE with the Chinese. Don’t get me wrong, I love the style and play of some of the Chinese but I do think that they mass produce them like robots & I’d love to see Gade duff them all up again!

You want to watch those runners "Nobody Specific" & learn a thing or two from them, as they're the ones who'll take a game off you!

[biggy]

Shut up Ricky!you are boring us.Runners are players who just get everything back and have a few good shots but mainly just run everything down.Hendrawan had basic shots,nothing special and same with Taufik.They haven't got spectacular movement and anyone can attack a shuttle.Even Roslin Hashim,the best runner today smashes the shuttle.And yes,all indonesians are runners.They run to the shuttle,not move with clean footwork.

And Ricky,what is the point studying a runner,you can't,anyone can run like them around a court,just train every day for 10 hours.I study the Chinese.Far better examples.

[koboduck]

I bet Mr Dawson was a good player. His comments really make sense. Some of the others though... Chen Hong playing like Zhao? No way! Ex-Chinese national player Lu thought it was a joke! According to a Kason Sports coach, even Chen disagrees, putting power and direction way ahead before deception, which was Zhao's main trademark. There are also similar quotes about Chen from Gopichand.
And then, Hendrawan no remarkable technique? Ask Peter Gade, who rated Hendrawan technically first of all his peers at the time, in spite of a rather weak smash.
But enough said, it's too big a job for me to heal the blind. And I couldn't stop laughing anyway.

[biggy]

Why do people all think that deception is movement.They move similary, they might not hit the same shots.Chen does use power or deception but he hits and moves in very well just like Zhao.His footwork is similar maybe not the same shots but definately the footwork.

Hendrawan was good,obviously,world champion and olympic silver medalist but he has nothing special,can't people see that.

[stuartwardell]

Gerald, I am not being funny but it took at least three attempts before I could work out what you were trying to say......
The only difference betwwen Zhao and Chen is their racket hand.
They both base their game around changing defence into attack.
They both jump the same way and roughly have the same body build and Height.
No other player from China has played this way since Zhao.

[biggy]

Stuart sums it up perfectly.They both use the saem game plan,get up to the shuttle and hit down and follow in,they are built similar and even have the same mentality to the game.Why do people associate movement with the shots they produce.Movement is moving to the shuttle not the striking of the shuttle.Deception is created from hitting the shuttle.Are people on here blind or dumb?!

[koboduck]

For the blind and dumb (like nobody specific) . My points are not only based on my own experience, but also on comments from, quotes from and interviews with:
1. A panel of former world top players discussing who was the best player ever - a.o. Ardy, Hartono, 'badminton professor' Han Jian, Thomas Stuer Lauridsen, Luo Yigang;
2. A Kason team coach who is also a national junior team coach of China commenting on differences between several Chinese players;
3. Peter Gade explaining the game of on his main opponents.
4. A Li Yongbo interview commenting on Chen Hong and Lin Dan.
It seems Stuart and Nobody Specific (surely you are not ashamed to mention your name?) claim to understand badminton a lot better than all these guys! Lin Dan must be glad these two are no contenders in Athens (and Stuart, this is sarcasm, in case you don't understand). But fun aside, I respect Stuart's accomplishments so far as a player for Surrey, but I was an international player as well, and have of course seen both Zhao and Chen playing live (my doubles partner had the doubtful privilege of playing Zhao once). But being a freak for facts I have also gathered a library of video material and expert analyses (if you interested...).
By the way, even if a similar build would ensure a similar style of play, Zhao wasn't as stocky as Chen.

[biggy]

Gerald,
Point 1.it has nothing to do with what I am arguing with you about.That point says nothing about how Chen plays similar to Zhao.You've mentioned those players rated Zhao as the best player ever and I agree with that.

Point 2.Which players did he compare.I am curious to know.

Point 3.You mentioned Gade, when he talked about Hendrawan, once again not part of the point I'm making.I've already said Hendrawan was good.

Point 4.What did Li Yongbo say?I'm curious again.

I respect your views,like everyone's in this forum but I am just saying that if you study Zhao,like I have for a few years solidly.I see patterns emerging like he turns defence into attack very easily.He uses deception,a great jump smash and he uses angles.

When I first saw Chen Hong play I noticed the same game plan and his movement is similar even though Chen doesn't walk around court like Zhao used to.Chen's one main difference is that Chen uses power over deception but his power creates deception when he puts in a clear.He is the only Chinese player to jump upright when he has the time, Lin Dan bends his back more and takes shuttles late sometimes but to good effect.Chen is the most similar to Zhao out of any Chinese player since Zhao.

[rickys]

Master Specific. I think you'll find that it is YOU who are becoming boring now, with your obsession with Zhao and the Chinese. So all Chinese players are good examples then? Chen, Lin & Xia all play & look the same? Now you're talking crap!

I like Zhao but there are few other Chinese who even come close to him. You are without doubt a better player than me but it doesn't mean you are more observant!

I too have a vast collection of Zhao footage which includes a recently obtained rare but poor quality copy of him in training which is what he used to show the Singapore team when he was coaching there, so I think I too can comment in regard to his style, etc.

My point to you is that runners may have a basic game, but one which is enough to bore, tire, whatever, their opponent so in away it's a good game plan & intelligent behaviour if it wins games. In the end it’s what all those runners did to beat Zhao & if you have a look at the results of the finals he was in for his last year 1992, you’ll see he was at the receiving end to most of them.

Lastly, I understand that a runner recently took a game off you! My point exactly.... Study that!

[rickys]

On a personal note Master Specific, you should respect other users view on this forum but you actually haven't been, telling people to shut up, they're boring, are you all blind & dumb, etc.

If you truly respect others, then you should moderate you language sunny!

Persuasion through debate is always more effective than trying to force a point through attempts at ridicule.

[stuartwardell]

Gerald,
Don't worry I do see the sarcasm and I understand what you are saying now.
Not the initial post however but I do now!!!

[biggy]

Master Specific sounds rather grand,thankyou Ricky.Runners are good players but they aren't worth studying, there's nothing new to learn.The Chinese are the best examples to follow and NO, they don't play all the same, they all have different styles and use different shots but in general are the best players to study.I am going on about the Chinese because it is part of the debate so why should I start talking about the indos or the malysians,there would be no logic.I could use far worser language so in my eyes I have moderated it.I am not forcing facts through ridicule so shut up!I have put down my opinions and people agree and people dis-agree.So,you have videos,doesn't make you a good analyser Ricky,it doesn't make me a good analyser as well and just because you have a training video of Zhao doesn't make you know everything.

WOW,a runner took a game of me,it's bound to happen from time to time,doesn't mean I go and study him and copy him,there is no point.You have proved no point Ricky!

[eddykid]

I have to agree that Lin Dan should win the title but he should have won the Worlds but didn't.
Ricky you sound like you were once a good player with all this knowledge and wisdom of yours.
I am getting a vibe off what you have been saying.

[rickys]

If you prefer Master Specific, I can call you Master Bates! That might be more appropriate, or perhaps you should stop hiding behind your ridiculous alias & reveal yourself you little charlatan.

You're right, just cos I have videos doesn't make me a good analyser, but the job I do does! What I say comes from trained observation not of just badminton players.

I wasn't suggesting you study a runner's technique, more so the behaviour of the player, their mental ability, etc. You talk a lot about physical strength & technique. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that singles is as much a mental battle as it's physical.

I knew, still do, one of the most natural talented singles players around. Trained far less than anyone else at his & your level & when he picked up a racquet, he easily duffed up everyone at your level. The man was gifted. He had great game play, speed, technique, deception but he had serious mental issues. He lacked discipline in a fundamental area & this was his biggest Achilles heel.

I learnt a number of things from him about the mental game, tried to help him mentally but under pressure he broke! Just because he was weak in a particular area doesn't mean one cannot learn from that player. Wrong, one must learn the weaknesses of a great player as much as their successes & strive to be better than their idol, not to be their idol!

Lastly, I think that it is you who should shut up, especially as you choose to play hide & seek, otherwise I might get really bored soon & reveal your identity for you....

[eddykid]

Ricky,
Leave the person alone and calm yourself down.
Who was that person who you were talking about who was talented but cracked under pressure.
Was he playing when you were a player.
Were you better than him.

[koboduck]

Dear Mr Specific,

First, I'd like to point out that I've closely followed and studied Zhao since he emerged on the world stage in 1985, when I was an international player as well, and even had the opportunity to speak to him about the game. I agree with your description of Zhao's badminton!

Point 1 has everything to do with my argument, because the survey also contained detailed comments on every player's strong and weak points (also Chen's and Zhao's). My first reaction was to your assumption that Chen's game in every respect resembles Zhao's. I disagree and so does Chen! Your response however, seemed to indicate that your main focus was movement. This is different from what your earlier post showed, but on the movement part I could go along with you. So little of an argument left, except for the fact that Chen's footwork is maybe even more textbook effective, because Zhao's incredible anticipation allowed him positions that would have been lethal for me, and probably you.

Point 2. The comparison he made was very extensive, starting with the first generation Hou Jia Chang (at 15 arguably Indonesia's number two, before anti-communism drove him out of Indonesia to China), via the generation Luan Jin/Han Jian/Chen Changjie and the 'golden era' Zhao Jianhua/Yang Yang/Xiong Guobao, to Chen Hong/Xia Xuanze/Lin Dan/Bao Chunlai to the young ones Chen Jin/Gong Weijie. I don't know where you are from, but I think we could have a few nice discussions over beers or Cokes!

Point 3. Peter Gade commenting about Hendrawan is a logical reaction to your first literal (!) statement that Hendrawan did nothing special, except run. Peter Gade rated Hendrawan's front court skills higher than any of the contemparary Chinese! And that was a necessity as Hendrawan physical abilities were below his rivals' and he - compared to almost every other good player - had very little power in his smash. Li Yongbo says that more determination and a better gameplan from the Indonesian coach would have given Hendrawan the Olympic title

Dismissing all the Indonesian shuttlers to the category 'runners' is not very realistic, even if I have to agree that more Indonesian schools start from a rally/runner view, where a lot of Chinese coaches start with a shotmaker's approach. But all world top players meet somewhere in the middle, in an all-court-game. Zhao's results became more consistent once he was able to shift from pure shotmaking to an all-court game, something Chen has not completely adopted yet, hence his lesser record against attacking players. So I can partially agree with you, as far as starting points go, but not concerning exemplary value or effectiveness of China versus Indonesia. Indonesia has had shotmaking talents with every effective footwork. Although not every player has a similarly effective footwork, a lot of the differences have to do with an individual's physique - if Thomas Stuer Lauridsen had tried to adopt Hermawan Susanto's movement he would have torn every ligament in his body.

My father was in Indonesia's TC squad in the fifties and played with Hou Jia Chang, who was later to become zhao's and Yang's coach. Hou later returned to Indonesia where was the national coach for a while and able to convey his views. I played Chinese, and I have played Indonesians. I played Ardy when he was fifteen, and as a junior he was a very attacking player with a very effective footwork, before he was coached into a more defensive game. But with his older style of play I have seen him beat Zhao a few times and - already a USA coach, retired, older and fatter! - Dong Jiong. I agree with you that Chen's footwork is highly effective and holds similarities with Zhao's movement on court. However, Zhao's peculiarities in footwork, due to his anticipation and his 'time advantage' over his opponent, because of his great deception, make his footwork not a textbook example for most players. In that case a study of Ardy's footwork would be better for most players. Zhao himself highly esteemed Ardy's footwork.

Point 4. Li Yongbo's interview is another good subject over beers or Cokes. Li considers Lin to be China's greatest talent of this era, where Chen's game shows more weaknesses in defence. Even though part of his motivation might be his fondness of Lin, there's a lot to be said for his comments.

I am glad to hear you respect my views. But - as Ricky rightfully concluded - some of your earlier comments lacked respect. I probably overreacted to that, and in turn might have used hard words and sarcasm. I apologise and I think it's a good idea if all of us would stop calling people blind, dumb or telling them to shut up (wouldn't make much of a forum eh?).

When I first saw Chen Hong play, he was still a junior with already a big smash. I can agree with a similarity in game plan. And of course I agree with you admitting that Chen doesn't walk around court like Zhao used to, and that the main difference is that Chen uses power over deception, but his powers alows a deceptive clear. After all, these were exactly my points!

As a coach I organise badminton trips, also to China. I don't know where you are from, but if you have Chinese blood it might be possible to squeeze you in. China does not encourage training/improving foreigners - especially since allowing Boonsak Polsana's training in China enabled him to beat some of them - but sometimes exceptions can be made for foreign 'Chinese' players. If you'd like the Chinese comments on our subject, there's no better place to go!

And for me the man to beat in Athens is, in current form, Lin Dan. But Athens is still a few months away...

Enjoy your badminton, everyone!

[rickys]

Hi Gerald.

I'd love to have a beer with you & talk about the greats of the past. We could invite Ms Specific along but I'm afraid that his past form shows he'll have to stick to cokes! FYI, most on here are in the UK.

I've been doing some digging & what I'm about to print should settle the various arguments.

What would Ms Specific say if I said that Kusuma & Chen Hong had the same coach? Probably until now laugh, well I said I thought he was one of the better Indonesian players of that era & guess what? It's true.

All the Chinese of the late 70's/early 80's had the same coach.

Want proof? In fact follow this link for some education & you'll see who taught what to who.

http://www.worldbadminton.net/Portal/intbadfed/HoF.htm#tang

By the way, the video I have features Mr Hou Jiachang teaching those players of that era footwork & technique, including Zhao for that matter.

Eddy, I don’t want to name him but he played in Surrey. He is still very good & probably could be in the 1st county team now. As for me, well I play now but I’m not very good really.

[eddykid]

You guys seem in love with Zhao.
They have places for you people but you have to wear a strange white jacket.

[Wizbit]

My Vote on the man to beat goes to Lin Dan.

Chen Hong is or was an out and out attacking player, when fully fit, he is probably THE most attacking player. His footwork is clean and efficient, as are his other team mates. However since his loss at the All Englands last year to Hafiz Hashim, many of the top players have developed effective strategies to beat him. Whether he is bored or dumbstruck when playing a particular type of opponent, only he himself would know. What we do know, is that he is no longer the dependable player that China banks on when needed, and now ranks 3rd on that list. Witness the recent Thomas Cup.

What is interesting and is noticeable, is that this year, his game is evolving with a shift from his all out attacking style and change of racquet from his smash happy Ti10 to the MP99. This change in style may or may not explain the lapse in performance.

Given a good draw and with a bit of luck, he could win Gold at Athens. He is known to be a hard worker too, so I am sure it will pay off in the end somehow.

As for the comparison with Zhao Jian Hua, I admit it did make me laugh :) but then a laugh a day keeps the Doctor away, so it's all good!

[biggy]

Ricky,Ill take this opportunity to apologise to you,your views are backed up with good evidence but I am just posting my views and I'm sorry if I offended you or came across to harshly.

I never said that Kusuma wasn't good I just said that he was a runner(a very good one at that just like Hendrawan).He does play good attacking shots but is still a runner,which isn't bad.

I hope there are no hard feelings,I'm enjoying the debate but the master bates joke was pretty poor Ricky,I'm sure you can do better than that,my 10 year old step cousin could do better.

And one last thing,the people who laughed at the comparison between Zhao and Chen obviously don't know the game very well.You don't know the fundementals of the game and you don't see patterns or work out game plans.

Lin Dan is the man to beat because he is world number 1,he'll be seeded one and he'll have everyone after him,but I think other players have better chances although I could see Lin Dan in the final.

[eddykid]

Nobody specific
I have to say that I do not think you should have apologised as Ricky seemed to take offence to you knowing Zhao better than him.
Yes you told him to shut up but people say shut up all the time to each other and the way you said it did not offend me so what is the problem.
Ricky seemed to use this to be-little your comments.
A tactic which is used a fair bit in a court of law even if they are in the wrong.
I still agree with you that Chen does look like Zhao and I do not see how that would amuse people.
However small things please small minds a Wiz bit

[rickys]

Nobody. I think we can agree to both apologise as you're right, the Bates joke wasn't too good & probably the debate did get a little heated.

Eddy, it depends in what context it's used & you certainly wouldn't say it to someone you didn't really know.

Seeing as you've stuck your 2 pence worth now, I'm going to suggest that your comments weren't particularly warranted & don't surmise about me when you don't know me & I don't know you!

Some points you made Eddy.

Firstly, a court of law? The only court we want to talk about here is badminton one. Secondly, who says that any one person knows Zhao better than another? I'm not & I certainly wasn't belittling anyone’s comments as I respect everyone has a different opinion - my point earlier. The only person who can know Zhao more, is someone who knows him personally.

Lastly, seeing as you think that the rest of us should wear straight jackets, then perhaps you should go elsewhere to post your unwarranted comments, which in fact were trying to belittle this debate!

Perhaps it is YOU who now owe an apology.

I've had enough now of this rubbish, so I think it's time to get back to the debate in hand.

How about anyone's guess as to what Zhao's been doing recently? I'll leave it a few days & then I'll post some photos of what he's been up to once you've taken pot luck.

[eddykid]

Ricky,
I know what he has been doing for ages now.
He's coaching Chen to look like him.
This is why chen looks so much like Zhao.
Maybe he's working in a fast food shop...
No, seriously he is getting another bowl cut for his hair style which he seemed to favour.
Have you not got anything better to do as I am sure I know Zhao better than you or anyone you know so there....

[koboduck]

Hi Ricky,

Your invitation sounds great. I am based in the Netherlands right now. I retired as an international player 10 years ago, and am a coach for Yonex now. I was very lucky to have my hobby as a profession, and I've been playing and teaching the game for over 25 years now. I was always very analytical about the game (maybe more of a coach's attitude than a player's).

I could have given Mr Specific complete libraries of analyses by me and the top players we mentioned, most of whom I've spoken to personally. So come over at the Dutch Open and we can have a drink and talk for ages. If you or Specific would like to have information or whatever we could exchange stuff and maybe meet at the AE or so. That would probably be fun.

I already knew the part about the Chinese coach -my father played both Hou and Tang in the Fifties when they were still Indonesian. He says Tang was the greatest talent of his time, bigger than Tan Yoe Hok, at that time considered the world number one.

Considering Alan. Personally I am more of Ardy fan than a Kusuma fan, having followed them since they were 15 (and Eddy Choong agrees with me here). They both had the same Chinese oach in the National team, but were originally from different clubs/schools (Alan's from Rudy's school). But I consider Alan's style a good example for many players, because it is easier to adopt for most than f.e. Zhao's. Alan is a very nice guy and visits Holland now and then (using his Chinese name which I can't recall right now), promoting a racket brand. He does not train anymore and has gained weight, but is still good. Alan says he think Ardy was maybe the best of the Indonesians, but too hot-headed sometimes and nervouw playing felow countryman, while Alan himself always stayed relaxed. Alan mentions Zhao as his greatest opponent, while Ardy says he rather played Zhao than Yang Yang.

By the way, I would like to know which video's you possess to possibly retain my old collection. A lot of my video's (more than 90!) were stolen from my apartment in 1999 - probably worthless for the robber , but priceless for me.

I would not mind playing some badminton again either. I stopped playing internationaly 10 years ago, but I think I could still play a bit when fit. And I have a good record against English national players (although many years and a lot of body weight ago), beating Hall once.

Now and then I hear some news about Zhao, being a sports commentator and into real estate, promoting Yang Yang rackets, writing a foreword for Han Jian's book and winning veteran tournaments! Hope to hear from you soon.

[badderboy]

Ricky, are you sure you aren't a good player, you sound talented and I bet after watching and studying Zhao for so long you move just like him.Maybe put yourself on a DVD and let up and coming kids watch it and study you.

[Vorpulus]

Game of Singles Ricky?

[rickys]

Very good folks, the names get better & better!

My singles game isn't very good, not as good as my doubles anyway. I'm just studying the game at the moment as I like watching it & hope to play much more in the near future. There's elements of my game I'm working on with my coach at the moment but I'm not prepared to enter competitions until I feel ready.

It's a bit like football really apart from the fact that most people who watch it talk like they know & play the game well, whereas fact is they don't play seriously at all or even kick a ball around ever!

Whereas I feel quite different about badminton. I like to watch for enjoyment, study & play. I think that gives you a very different perspective of the game & helps you to understand the true technicalities.

People in the UK love Beckham. Buy his books, try to look like him; clothes, hair, earrings, etc. It’s interesting because this isn’t really regarded as anorak behaviour whereas in other circles it’s regarded as laughable.

Zhao basically is the Beckham of badminton! A massive star he was in his day in the Far East. I also rate highly our UK players, Anders Nielson, Peter Knowles, Darren Hall, Martin Dew, to name only a few (if you keep an eye out, you’ll find he is on Badders & gives much wisdom).

There’s a thought, perhaps I should change my racquet hand, wear my watch on my right wrist, eat loads of Chinese food & get my hair spiky. It’s already dark & perhaps I could go to night school & learn Mandarin… If I have a son in the future, I’ll name him Zhao too!

Watch this space folks…………

[badderboy]

Deary me,Ricky has officially lost the plot!First of all the bad jokes and now thinking he'll become Chinese,oh dear!

It's good to hear you are training and getting good advice from your coach but I also hear you get most of your points you post on here from him aswell.Someone told me this fact and I'm wondering if it is true?Enlighten me Ricky!

[Vorpulus]

Ricky you haven't answered the question. Game of Singles?

[stuartwardell]

Is that a challenge vorpulus.
Do you know Ricky?

[Vorpulus]

It was a challenge and no, I don't know who Subiday is.

[Frodo]

Vorpulus $, Kid, Kidding, Subide, Nobody Specific, Gerald ... why dont you all get together and battle it out on court ?

Then we can find out who really is the man to beat ... at least on this thread.

Keep it friendly amd I am sure you will have a great time. Also you can then provide a write up for badders.com about the event - I am sure they could do with a new article.

Kind Regards
Frog

PS: This is a great thread to read

[Vorpulus]

Is this the true Frodo the Frog? Or an imitation?

[Frodo]

I can do impersonations ... but no cheap imitations

[biggy]

I'm sure you'd beat him vorpulus, as much of a great talent he is,I'm pretty sure you could beat him,no hard challenge for a man of your greatness vorpulus.

[Vorpulus]

Precisely.

[rickys]

Nick Kidding or is it perhaps "BadderBoy" or even Nobody Specific cos whoever you are you make the same typos. You've been made sport!

I get some of my points from my coach whereas YOU seem to quote him verbatim! It's interesting that you pursue this line of humour as we in fact share the same coach.

What I share with our coach is the same great enthusiasm, observation techniques, an understanding of teaching (as we are both instructors) & often discuss teaching techniques.

I've often observed things about Zhao myself & discussed the reasons with my coach. I'm not ashamed of the fact that I aspire to his playing ability or the players who he has regard for, as he was not to long ago, one of the best players around at the top county level & probably higher.

Anyway, you know all this already but I'm enlightening you for your audience as you seem to enjoy playing hide & seek. Also, we’ll see you’re true greatness NK, NS, BB or whatever you call yourself next weekend when you meet your hardest opponent in your next match. I wish you well but don’t be over confident as the great player I spoke of, lost it big time at the last minute when in fact he had beat him in everyway.

Voluptuous, when & where then? I actually don't give a stuff whether I win or lose, I just enjoy playing so if you're a lot better, then you may get bored. However, if you think you're too good then my coach will be happy to engage you.

[eddykid]

The Gauntlet is laid down Vorpo...

Is this the Ricky from Wimbledon?

If so then i will be having a few beers with the old codger coach soon...

[Vorpulus]

>>
Voluptuous, when & where then? I actually don't give a stuff whether I win or lose, I just enjoy playing so if you're a lot better, then you may get bored. However, if you think you're too good then my coach will be happy to engage you.
>>

The Vorpulus will not reveal himself to the likes of yourself Subsiday until you have proven yourself worthy.

No I won't be training too hard in the mean time, maybe a few clears per month.
Who's your coach Subsiday? I may watch you from the shadows if I'm passing. Can your coach 15-0 you no probs?

[rickys]

Eddy. I know who you are? Apparently you suffered at the hands of my coach when he was in his prime as he wielded his racquet like a bludgeon!

Voluptuous. I know what I've said so it doesn’t need repeating! What you hiding from? You don't know me. How do you know YOU are worthy of meeting me? In fact you’ve now given a big clue as to your identity, as you’ve said just a little too much already that has exposed something of your identity.

I'm not revealing anything further about my coach as you are clearly not worthy of knowing his greatnesses identity at the moment. He's been informed of your impudence & may respond should he choose to address you. If you’re really lucky, you may be allowed the privilege of being humiliated on the same court as him!

I think the only shadow that will be cast is when he 15-0 thrices you & you'll be withering in his shadow - Voluptuous $hadow.

[eddykid]

Vorpo,
I am the man to beat sunny.
Let me guess, I bet you play with Wilson don't you....

[biggy]

What are you on about Ricky.My internet has been down for the past week so nick kidding can't be me.We use the same typos so we must be the same person.I'm not nick kidding.You know who I am but I think you should go back to the drawing board.

[Vorpulus]

Who's Wilson when he's at home?

Subsiday, don't be ridiculous. The only way you could possibly have heard of my greatness is if you've been talking to one of the sages under my power. If you want Subsiday, I will copy my text and analyse it for you to see what you could possibly have picked up. You need only say the word.

If I can be bothered, I may send the sage of badminton future to you whilst you sleep so you can see how silly you've been questioning the great Vorpulus.

Until you have proven yourself worthy, Subsiday, do feel free to relax in the sunshine as it shines through my 'cheeks' (respecting the family forum is essential) at you and your illusions of greatness.

As for you Eddy, I wouldn't risk challenging you to do anything more difficult than successfully distinguishing between your racket and your elbow. You just take it easy, and everything will be alright.

[eddykid]

Vorpy,
Wilsons.....

[eddykid]

Where has vorpo gone.

I thought he was the man to beat...

[nickr]

Having read this thread with great interest I was wondering who everyone has decided is the man to beat?

Is it Ricky or zhao or monkey or rin tin tin.

On the question of aliases Rickster the trickster and naming and shaming people, I remember someone hiding behind the mask of Titanium. Ring any bells?

See you on Monday.

[Vorpulus]

Zhao is the man to beat. He would 15-0 Chen Hong if he (Zhao) was wearing a clown suit.

[eddykid]

Vorpy how you doing, have your exams finished or are you still studying sunny.....

[Vorpulus]

Let's not try and be too clever Mr Babolat, it really doesn't suit you.

[Vorpulus]

Meet me at Bluebirds and we'll play some singles.

[rickys]

Nicholass.

While you’re on the subject of “the monkey”, I've had a look through to see the great past writings of the magnificent Nicholass & it appears that you only have ever spoken when you could get the opportunity of engaging your head up "southern monkeys" bottom!

You never contribute anything vaguely sensible or badminton related. Others, including myself make jokes & poke fun but we substantiate our humour based on a good knowledge of the game!

Don't you have any knowledge of the real game outside of your club & why is it that you never have anything constructive to say Nicholass?

Is it because all your knowledge of the game has come from one of your many journeys to the centre of “the Monkey’s” bottom?

[badderboy]

Ricky,you are scraping the bottom of the bottle with your sad and quite frankly,non-humerous jokes. Master Bates to Nicholass. You are just too funny. Who the hell is 'the monkey'??? I bet I could make far better analogies of todays game than you. You are nothing ricky or shall I say titanium. I know far more than you on badminton and you are just defending yourself because you know that all your 'wonderful' analogies of Zhao come from your coach.

[Vorpulus]

>>
Is it because all your knowledge of the game has come from one of your many journeys to the centre of “the Monkey’s” bottom?
>>

I hope you gave him a warm welcome, Ricky.

[nickr]

Rickster,

I don't contribute much because I have little to contribute and know it. Nor do I belittle rising talent for my own gratification.

As for your 'good knowledge' of the game....... Actually I am not going to go there.

The reason I posted on this thread, was that I think you bullied nobody specific and you threw your toys out of the pram. Somebody has to keep you in check.

I am however, not surprised that you bit on a small hook with no live bait attached.

[rickys]

I've seemed to have hit a nerve with 2 persons. I wonder why?

Nick Kidding or whoever you are. I've already apologised to the relevant party for that remark, so frankly it's none of your business now. We both agreed that the debate got a little heated.

It's you who are nothing. I'm a person, one that others can see & know, whereas you are the nobody hiding behind a mask! Identify yourself & lets see if you can substantiate all your verbal diarrhoea! By the way you are obviously over sensitive as I wasn’t talking to you originally & nor was I disputing your ability or knowledge.

I openly admit that I get some of my observations from my coach, whereas others are my own - ask him if you dare show yourself. I have the utmost respect & admiration for my coach, as a coach & as my friend but I do not worship him nor try to be him.

Nick Raynor, as for "I don't contribute much because I have little to contribute and know it", then perhaps you should practise this. Originally I didn't know who this individual was - a peril of using aliases & I certainly wasn't trying to belittle anyone for "my own gratification" or knowingly bullied. I'm not like that - ask those who know me including my coach. Oh, by the way have you all of a sudden adopted the role of the Internet police? If the fact be known, I've been encouraging this rising talent personally & offered to help him & I’m currently building a library of classic footage for him on DVD.

If people resort to personal attacks then I'm going to fight fire with fire! It's you two who have turned this great debate into a childish circus.

As to the wild accusations about myself & a so called "titanium", I don't know what you are talking about.

[nickr]

Ricky,

Relax mate. I think you protest too much........

[badderboy]

You want to know my name, well it begins with Nick and ends in Kidding.

[badderboy]

I do find your remark about childishness funny because it's you who is making childish remarks with stupid jokes.