Court behaviour

[Phil McBride]

I know this has been discussed before but it was from the view point of parents and disgruntled coaches having a go at selected "participants" after being hard done by.

Now that there are more juniors on the site can they comment on how they approach a game with a known or an unknown opponent? Is there a difference? I have noticed that some players are very respectfull of their opposition and others seem arrogant and show little respect for others on court. ie. flicking shuttles into the net and letting the opponent get them, trying to stare out the opposition etc.

Is this general demeanour or is it advised by coaches/players, ie. act this way to unsettle the other player.

[ADZ1]

it depends on the character involved

[hilly1285]

yer every individual is different, some play better trying to pysche out their opponents, whereas other dont. Its just experience, i would personally try to pysche out an individual who i feel is likely to 'lose it' and therefore their standard of play is likely to drop.

After all sport nowadays isn't just about physical endeavour, but pyschology is comming into play, and it certainly splits those who are true world beaters from the rest of the pack.

Not sure about sport in the UK and the rest of the world, but top junior athletes in the US have special pyschiactic tests, and training in order to know the best way of them pysching out their opponets, and by the looks of it - its seems to be working very well.

[Phil McBride]

Michael how would you play against an oponent you don't know? If you try to intimidate them without knowing their character it could lead to problems.

Me, can you elaborate? Character as in what?

What I am trying to acertain is this kind of "arrogance" taught! Or is it in the makeup of the individual to kind of turn that way?

How do you go about doing this?

[hilly1285]

Its obviously hard to say if you've never played them before, but you can generally watch them warming up and get a good idea of which type of player they are. You could also watch them playing other opponents and try to figure it out that way.

In the UK I wouldn't specifically say that it was taught, but more the player learns it in experience. But for some sports e.g. Football/Rugby i would say that it is 'taught' subconciously by (usually) parents on the touch line shouting commands at their kids - like 'deck him' and 'go on son, nail him', when the kids are young they follow the commands of their parents which subsequentially winds up the opposition. Over time then kids work out that these sort of tactics work and use them more and more.

[biggy]

I concentrate on a match hard and vision on what I will play like.I do a certain warm up and prepare mentally.

[Phil McBride]

Interesting point Michael, I was just thinking about the differences from contact and non-contact sports (allbeit football is not considered a contact sport).

How do you figure out if an opponent is likley to snap or "lose it" based on their warm up? What I am getting at is how can you judge someone mentally from the most basic exposure of them gamewise?

If I give you 2 examples of players can you shed some light on how you would approach the game.

Ranking tournament:

i) County level player late teens, confident/arrogant demeanour. All the shots and is a "player", highly strung type and is out to assert himself.

ii) Older, maybe mid twenties more of a club player, can perform shots and has "all the gear" but not up to the same standard as the first player, laid back and carefree.

Both assesments are based on a warmup/knockup watch!

[justme]

normally its just a feeling that you get, you can tell what sort of player they are.

[Phil McBride]

Player yes, for the most part but the mentality of the individual?

[Moose]

"You dont know someone until you have fought them" etc.

Its like job interviews and the like - they have formed their opinion in the first 30 seconds.

Same with sport - the first few moves should tell you all about your opponent.

As an occasional rugby player, the one over-riding necessity when playing competetively is that the very first tackle is the one that counts. If you "hammer" the player with the ball, it sets up the prescedence for the rest of the game. If you go in weakly, then it is demoralising for your team.

However, although I have never been coached, and certaily doubt I will ever, I would only ever advocate sportsmanship - i.e., show respect to your opponent.

If you are going to intimidate or psyche out your opponent, it should be only done through a show of skill on the court and if that reputation happends to precede you and aid you, so be it.

Badminton is not boxing; we dont need an Ali type.

The trick is to help train the mentality of not being apathetic or self-defeating. That way each individual tries to rise above their opponents in terms of skill.

[lekha85]

I think the psychology of sport is almost as important as the sport itself. (Take a look at The Inner Game of Tennis by W Timothy Gallwey). I see nothing wrong with trying to 'pysche out' your opponent. However, I imagine that most top sportspeople are unlikely to be affected by such tactics and may even find it amusing.
But it there is certainly no excuse for being rude to an opponent, eg, not passing them the shuttle, not apologising if you belt them in the face with the shuttle etc...It's just general manners, surely?

[hilly1285]

See where your comming from Phil, and i suppose in general you are right, it is very hard to judge someone mentally from seeing them warm up. But where i was comming from is not 100% accurate but by looking at psychological research, you can some up an athlete and give then, say a points score of how likely they are to be pysched out. For instance, a young teen is more likely to be out pysched than an experienced 40 year old. Someone who is introverted is more likely to be out pysched than a extrovert (????). Im not saying that this will always be true, but could give a general rule of thumb.

The point Martyn makes is a very valid one aswell, about making the first hard tackle. When i used to play rugby we were told that exact thing, get the player down early on and throughout the game they will feel intimidated by you. Does anyone use this tactic for badminton (obviously not tackling your opponent to the ground), or does it only work for contact/team sports?

[Phil McBride]

Martyn - "you don't know someone till you have fought them" - a bit pointless since if you can't gleam any info early on then by the time the game is over and you have lost it's too late.

The point about rugby is very apt given the topic since I know someone who is a second dan and he always hits the same fast combo in a tournament to gauge the opponent and bases the rest of the match on that.

What I can see is that the physicallity of other sports, psychology is easier to apply becasue there is more contact and indeed interaction, in fact it would seem physical intimidation is applied.

Michael - The general rule of thumb is more or less what anyone would apply to a situation or indeed common sense in a way, some people are easier to break than others!

Sulekha - I think the same about etiquette but when does this rudeness turn into psychological gamesmanship? Where is the line drawn? Some players use these tactics to unsettle the opponent, the sad thing is that it works with some players.

[kfw8664]

Sulekha, I could not agree with you more, unfortunatly there are a few of those VERY bad mannered people out there and what I find amusing more than anything, are the people with all the gear and all that attitude and THINK they are good players and ooh god how wrong they are, but Sulekha it is not only the good players that recognise and are able too laugh at these people, I recognise it quite well and I would never consider myself a good player, just a trier, It actually amuses me sometimes at how silly and stupid these people are, shaking hands is another bone of contention with me, the wet fish handshake at the end of a game with not a word get's my goat too

[flamingjam]

Emotions on court can be used to psych someone out which can be useful and can also backfire as this tactic often spurs on the oppenent you are playing if ther in the game to win which at county level they usually are. An up shot of this is it usually leads to a highly interesting and often high quality match between two 'pumped up' players. I myself need an oppenent whose in it 2 win to play well so i welcome players who use these tactics and loud court behavior as one it spurs me on 2. i can do it just as well and 3. It leads to a great game

[flamingjam]

Also in response to the 'wet fish handshake' I used to do it cos of disgust often with my performance i now relise after playing more and better that you have to RESPECT YOUR OPPENENT its a stupid and disrespecful thing to do and others just see less of you if you act like that. I've learnt to play hard in the game confidently, loud and agressively but ALWAYS to respect the outcome and the player so shake his hand and be friendly and good off court you'll be thought more of by everyone else.

[hilly1285]

Phil, with regard to where the the line is drawn between etiquette and gamesmanship, well there isn't one. As far as im aware players can do anything unless it is breaking one of the laws of the game. Whether it is making 'funny' noises when they are hitting the shuttle, or not shaking hands after a game. All though i dont do these things (honest), if someone else does them to me, i just ignore them and carry on with my game. Afterall sport is by nature competitive, the human instinct it to win at all(?) costs by whatever means you see fit. It would annoy me more if someone wasn't trying there hardest.

[kfw8664]

Michael,
I certainly have no problem with the gamesmanship bit, but rudeness I do, flicking shuttles at feet etc, for me is just not on, we all like to win and most of us try to do our best but there is noor place for simple bad manners

[flamingjam]

Gamesmanship is part of the game now but bad manners shouldn't be at any level of the game. Ive tried hard to make my game strong (i use gamesmanship) but fair if thers a better player on the otherside ther is and well done 2 them. I taken the bad manners away from my game. And i get annoyed when others keep up these bad manners which i find in league games often some players cant take being beaten by younger players like me and other county players at clubs in the league games it seems strange and sad to me now ive a more grown up attitude to the game and how to play.

[Phil McBride]

Well Kevin you've played against me and at most of the club nights I go to!

The people with all the gear or "me" as we shall call them/it for now and the county level player was the one you discussed after an event in Glasgow recently.

How would you describe my psychology? Do you think I can be "broken down" as is the case with others we encounter in clubs? I flick shuttles out of the court let alone into the net but in a humerous manner which brings people into the game and gets them involved.

I agree with Michael on his points and that the level of rudeness in the game is sometimes unbearable but we all have to put up with it! There are two ways to deal with it, (i) Let it go and don't bother or (ii) Do it back and see how they cope with it. But bringing yourself down to the level of another to prove a point.........is it worth it?

I'm surprised no one has commented on the obvious, that you can only concentrate on your own game and as long as you do this then you are doing the best you can do.

Am I alone in thinking emotions on court is wrong? I think this is the sign of a mental weakling, your emotions should not get the better of you it is up to you to control your emotions. It's what differentiates humans from animals (for the most part).

Posted by Kevin:

"I would never consider myself a good player"

If I hear talk like this again I will be having words with you, twice in 1 week is just a plain no no!

Just out of curiosity who do you compare yourself against, because when I open my eyes I see inflated ego's on court not skill!

See you tomorrow night.

[flamingjam]

'that you can only concentrate on your own game and as long as you do this then you are doing the best you can do.'
sry but this seems to me just to be wrong you have to modify your game often to your oppenent. Really its best sumed up with something Andy Wood told me:

5% of the time you will win because its just your day everythings happening

5% of the time they will win because its there day and working for them

90% of the time the games ther to be won you just have to work out how

[Phil McBride]

James you are missing the point of interpritation slightly, concentrating on your game does not mean not adapting to the circumstances of the game! It means worry about yourself becasue it's the only thing you are in control of (most of the time)

You are only in control of what you do!

You cannot change the oposition or how they play!

Hence the question posed in the first instance.

[flamingjam]

hmm difference of opinion maybe were diverting off the court behaviour topic In my view and experience you can control a large amount of the oppenents game and by anaylising the oppenets game you can make decisions about parts of your game which will work and those which wont. This is more easily achieved at a club level where players have certain parts of there game they arn't comformtable with. This isn't so at county level where you have to put into practise the belief and comment Andy Wood told me where you use your game and strong points and the oppenents game to work out how to play. I had a standard style of play about 1 month ago now i can change depending on oppenent this includes shots, behavior on court, speed and intensity of the game. Court Behavior changes on the game

[Phil McBride]

No James it's exactly what I wanted to know, I wanted the view of juniors and specifically those at county level to see if this kind of behaviour is widespread or localised.

It's not off topic it's psychological conditioning, you think you can control anothers actions through playing. It's just another method of trying to achieve a win is it not?

You can't control your oponents game (the word control is too strong), you can however try to change or modify it or try and influence it in playing specific styles and/or strokes to force a specific outcome as in chess.

In this instance you can react better since you think or assume a likely outcome to the percentages of the shots that you have just played.

In relation to this I always find it harder to play against players who have never been coached since they are unorthadox in their thinking because they have never been told to play a specific way or shot so the outcome is likely to be different each time.

So how would you approach the game with the two examples I gave earlier?

[flamingjam]

If i was ready 2 play another county player i would proberly have been briefed quickly if someone had played them before and a few words by a coach or manager about basic tactics. Firstly you HAVE to respect the opponent unless your very arrongant or good. Playing as a County one or two generally the games are of an intense nature with certain tactics and behaviours are used within the first 5 rallies you aim to understand there basic game and apply your game to and against it. If the person im playing is good and/or better than me i enjoy what is to be an exciting game so for county players you try and find whatever advantages you can over them in their game as they will be able to play all the shots.
Against club players (mainly older ones) the view is different generally us county players never play as intense a game and you try more to play your own style the games are more often open and i dont use the tactics and in the face behaviour as i do in county matches or tournaments the basic line often is that if the county player is playing well and enjoying himself its often always the older player he/shes agianst uses 'bad' behaviour and sad tactics which is strange really as they should be encouraging the younger players. plz ask anymore questions

[Phil McBride]

Can you expand on the type of behaviour you use?

[flamingjam]

Basically keeping the intenseity up in county games when the oppenents on the back foot losing points keep up the pressure attack be agressive when your losing points slow the game down lengthen rallies wipe the brow and those much needed drinks breaks. Often in doubles partically staring out oppenents at the net and service is common though im bad at it (always seems so funny keep laughing) singles games between to players can be loud with verbal 'boosters' if you like when points are won. If you see an oppenents uncomfortable with a situation you attack it make him more uncomfortable wind them up if u can make them lose there cool because a pumped up player if very good but ones whose been pushed over the edge is often very bad. but ALWAYS at the end congrats go to the oppenent specialcally if it was a good entertaining close aggressive game .

[kfw8664]

just a quicky phil, yes I have played against you and if i'm to be honest at first I di not like playing against you, I thought you were a little show off, but you were never rude or unsporting you take the game seriously when the game has to be and lets face it we want to have fun too, you provide that and as far as playing with and against you, I have played against you once competatively and you were the model of good manners, you said this evening I was Mr no confidence, which I believe to be untrue, I just know there are better players than me and at club level I have only just discovered there are club players much much better than me, but phil I think you know I want to learn and I'm willing to put the effort in, maybe with your help I can aspire to be a better player and not feel so out of it, especially on a monday

[Phil McBride]

Honestly.............show off? Moi? I would think of it more as I'm predictable in my unpredictability!

That's twice in the last week I have heard you beat down on yourself about the level you play at, at the clubs you frequent.

1. You ARE a GOOD player and at times our game drops, what you might have failed to notice as a new player to a club is that members get used to your playing style and adapt to it.

A key thing pointed out by James in this thread, to progress we must adapt and modify ourselvs to play diferently.

The learning curve for badminoton is not a normal one, you elevate a little and then plateau off and increase again and then level and so on. People by their very nature adapt to surroundings and stimuli and experiences. In plain english they get used to you (your playing style and shots)

2. As I said before I have little time for those who are arrogant and think themselvs better than others, how can you judge yourself by those means? Even the world no 1 does not win every game he plays in competition!

So how do specific club players manage this feat? Well let's just put it 2 ways: (i) Either people don't take everything 100% and couldn't be bothered about the winning or losing or (ii) They're just too good for everyone in the club, I know which one I'm going for!

When playing you need to sit off and watch the players you face and not get used to them but assess what they do, again as James points out there are advantages you can learn from just watching. Read through what James has posted and I'll elaborate more indepth tonight. But don't use any of this to analyse my game and win more often!

Remember Good player.......

Oh and:

"you take the game seriously when the game has to be"

Not yet I haven't ;)

[will0407]

Kevin,
Going back to the point you made on page 2 about flicking the shuttle to the opponents feet at the end of a rally, do you find it is a particualr group of players? Through my experience at junior level, I've found that it is usually the England players that do it. I'm sure they don't mean any harm by it, I think it's just them trying to beat the opponent psycologically. So in that respect, I wouldn't consider it to be rude.

[flamingjam]

If its in a club game n atmosphere and not a high tension game then yes it is rude. On the point of the 'England' players etc i have to say that many are fine on court sure a few have that attitude alot of young players have (not a bad thing) . Some youngesters from particular counties seam to have more 'sporting' attitudes to games than others i would note.

[justme]

if you watch the internationals play they always flick the shuttle back away from the person. and they never pick the shuttle up if they didnt make the mistake....i.e even if ther opponnent drives the shuttle into the net and their standing there next to the shuttle they wont pick it up unless they made the error. is this rude or gamesmanship ?

[Phil McBride]

It's just plain rude!

[hilly1285]

Gamesmanship!

[Phil McBride]

Michael if someone flicked a shuttle at my feet they would fast track themselvs a smack in the mouth!

Thankfully in the club I mainly play the players mostly go out of their way to return the shuttle to each other and none of that nonsense!

But in saying this in the level(s) being discussed it's unfortunately gamesmanship :(

[flamingjam]

At a club its deemed unacceptable really at international level it isn't at county level er.. up 2 you depends on the county really specially with juniors

[kfw8664]

I'm sorry to all of you, I don't believe there is any room for this at any level, it is just plain rude, of course you can make a mistake but if I ever do I apologise to the player, am i just being a woose, (I suppose i've just walked into a response with that)

[Phil McBride]

Just to add to Michael and James' last posts in club play lets face it there is not much riding on the results except some rivalry now and again, in county the players are more likely to be pumped up and mean the flick in a malicious way in order to put off an oponent, in international level....well enough said.

Kevin - "(I suppose i've just walked into a response with that)"

Just stick to walking into shuttles, it seemed to work last night no problem ;)

[flamingjam]

oh dear does this count as club rivalry then ? thought juniors were bad

[eddykid]

Phil,
If you smacked someone in the mouth for that then you would be as bad as them wouldn't you now.....

[kfw8664]

I'm sorry to all of you, I don't believe there is any room for this at any level, it is just plain rude,

[eddykid]

Come on guys it is only temper coming out.
I think it is a good sign if a kid or an adult does these things as it shows character and passion for their sport.
There are to many nice guys these days and everyone wants to get on with everybody.
This is a competetive game so lets not get to passive here.

[kfw8664]

Eddy I suggest you read the complete thread, I have no problem with competative play, but you want to win because you are a better player not because you are better at winding up your opponent

[flamingjam]

i agree read it all i make it clear that a competitive game at the rite level is the best most enjoyable and the one i most like to play at. There is a difference between passion in the sport which i see time and again and wrong behaviour (which ive also seen plenty of)

[Phil McBride]

Eddy If I smacked someone in the mouth then I would be better than them becasue I would be teaching them a lesson would I not?

Temper is a lack of control of your emotions, and as I have said earlier a person should be in complete control of their emotions at all times, yes the game is competitive but to wind players up intentionaly is psychological gamesmanship is it not?

As James, Kevin and Michael have been kind enough to contribute in a logical manner justifying their views can you do likewise?

So what are your views on court behaviour and where is the line between what you consider rude and what not?

[kfw8664]

I must admit, I get emotional on court, when i'm not playing well and sometimes a little vocal, but it is always directed at myself and personally I find it a release and a way of getting myself to concentrate more, therefor play better, of course sometimes does not work, Is this wrong?

[hilly1285]

I wouldn't say that being emotional on court is wrong, in fact it is an integral part of sport. But there is a fine line that shouldn't be crossed, i would say that it is ok to be angry with yourself and even be vocal at times aslong as it is to greer yourself up and not to annoy your opponent.

As for the physical side, well the line is even more fine. For instance the shuttle needs changing, you politely ask your opponent if they want to change it, they say no (just to wind you up), so you then 'accidentally' stand on the shuttle ruining it - is that gamesmanship, or just rude?

[Phil McBride]

That's just plain fun.

The problems with all these examples are they are all examples of what we face in game situations but there are too many vairiables to calculate.

If we do the obvious thing and take club nights out of the equation because lets face it a bit of rivalry on this level means nothing.

I think county is the main battlefield in this aspect because in international players normally agree because they accept the referee's decision and umpires check the shuttle.

In county if we take James' posts for instance the rivalry is imense and games often close, are both players at ease? Is one player slightly aggro? what are the frames of mind of each player? How much pressure are they under to win?

The majority of club players go along and play and are never exposed to this level and even less have tasted international, at each incrament the pressure increases and there is more to lose!

We need to factor these type of things into the mix.

[ADZ1]

Phil if you smacked me for flicking the shuttle at your feet i would crack you with a headbutt back, dont be stupid if its a competitive game eddys right im not going to try and be your best friend, on court who gives a ... if you liked me or not, nobody gos to far in a match where you literally hate eachother but your talking about something petty. Thats exactly the reason why people do that sort of thing, because someone with your temperement cannot handle it and will get angry

[Phil McBride]

"Phil if you smacked me for flicking the shuttle at your feet i would crack you with a headbutt back"

I doubt it very much!

So are you saying you are a very passionate player or just one who tries to win at all costs since you are endorsing this kind of thing.

"dont be stupid if its a competitive game eddys right im not going to try and be your best friend, on court who gives a ... if you liked me or not"

I'm not stupid so i'll explain the point in laymans terms: this particular action is psychologically unsetling to certain people, this much we can agree on, yes?

It's not about liking or not, people that are easily un-nerved just like in Michaels earlier post would react to this in another manner to me! Some people will crumble mentally because they are too highly strung to cope with this kind of tactic and the pressure of the game, other tactics might also be creeping in. I myself would just act completely the opposite and make sure I waited on the other person to turn round and handed the shuttle to them or flicked it to their racket. If the same kind of behaviour continued I would just do the same. As I said earlier the other option is to recipricate their bad manners by going one better ie. hitting the shuttle straight out of the back of the court and letting them get it themselvs, but it just depends on the situation and what is at stake.

"nobody gos to far in a match where you literally hate eachother but your talking about something petty. Thats exactly the reason why people do that sort of thing, because someone with your temperement cannot handle it and will get angry"

Petty to whom? 5 pages worth seem to make me think there is something in it.

Me - I'm the most laid back person in the world but I can't stand poor gamesmanship or bad manners.

My temperement? You speak as if you know me, so in that case you would also know that even the kids I coach feel the same way about court manners, the club I play in is exactly the same. So are you saying we are all different to the rest of the badminton world, this kind of ignorance is the norm?

Gamesmanship I like but just plain ignorance and bad manners just shows people up for what they are.

[ADZ1]

Firstly a lot of people would tell you i would be the first to crack you back for smacking me without no doubt.

Secondly what is the deal with quoting everything that i say!!

i never said i knew you, the 'temperement' i was referring to would be you smacking someone for hitting a shuttle at your feet, understand that things like that are used as gamesmanship and not always rudeness.

when i said talking about something petty i wasnt talking about the thread, was the little things you were talking about e.g. flicking shuttle at feet.

Haha, you didnt like that post, bit personal for your liking eh?

[eddykid]

Me,
Don't upset him because he's going to smack you in the mouth....

I have to admit Phil that was a cracking answer.
A little over the top however but good.

I would like to see you play a county match though as you may be the idea that the B A of E are looking for.

A headless, no messing around player who brings exitement to the game.
Just what the sport needs.

[kfw8664]

ME, i'm sorry i must not agree with you, there is gamesmanship and there is rudeness, gamesmanship would be wasting time, tying shoe laces etc, rudeness is flicking shuttles etc

[Phil McBride]

Sorry have to quote again :(

"Firstly a lot of people would tell you i would be the first to crack you back for smacking me without no doubt."

It's best not to say what others would tell you about me then!

I'm quoting just in case there is any ambiguity in the response(s).

"i never said i knew you, the 'temperement' i was referring to would be you smacking someone for hitting a shuttle at your feet, understand that things like that are used as gamesmanship and not always rudeness."

Fair point but there are consequenses to every action and subsequent reaction are there not, that is why we are also discussing psychological gamesmanship, you do not know the state of mind of the other person you are playing so how can you judge what would be effective or how far can you push before they snap?

"Haha, you didnt like that post, bit personal for your liking eh?"

On the contrary I liked the post and that's why I have responded, keep it up.

But please elaborate on the points you consider gamesmanship and since you brought into the fold the psychological aspect of gamesmanship please feel free to explain how you analise someone and how you know what will work or not.

Eddy -

"Me,
Don't upset him because he's going to smack you in the mouth....

I have to admit Phil that was a cracking answer.
A little over the top however but good."

Funny :)

But who said mouth, please read the posts or else you can't wind people up properly. Cracking answer indeed!

"I would like to see you play a county match though as you may be the idea that the B A of E are looking for."

So would I but I think the heart attack would get the better of me first.

"A headless, no messing around player who brings exitement to the game.
Just what the sport needs. "

Headless? exitement? I'm as boring as a box of rocks.

Kevin you need to take these things in context, at a higher level you are playing for more and these things do actually matter, it is the people who excel at this that are often the winners, the trouble comes from people who walk onto courts without a clue what to expect and get riled by these kinds of actions.

But then again where do you draw the line?

[flamingjam]

He's rite boxes of rocks are very boring so he may not be what the BAof E are looking for. Generally at county level most players walk on court knowing what to expect in terms of behaviour and can deal with it. What i find harder to deal with are older players at clubs who obiviously feel its their divine rite to beat the younger player and so resort to plain cheating half the time not so impressive sportsmaship and in your face behavior at county yes great excellent but this stuff in clubs er no dont think so people its sad.

Also there are plenty of exciting entertaining players coming though the ranks in the junior county section and junior england sections just what the BAof E want lets hope they all keep on with this behaviour cos its great.

[eddykid]

Phil,
get your leaders award before reading us your rights on what is correct in this game.
It will be a challenging course for you where you will have to keep hold of your temper but I am sure you will do fine.
Let me know how you get on ok.

[biggy]

James says a good point about the older players.I am a junior and I play in the adult county teams and I find some of the players from the other county are dis-respectful and think they can walk all over me when they play me.They think because I'm a kid that I know nothing.

So...What do I do?I give them a caning on court,then by the doubles or mixed they have respect.If that fails then it tends to get worse.

This pattern isn't with every adult county player,alot of them are respectful and play fairly.

[flamingjam]

cheer 4 the input your right younger player tend to be very aggresive compared to many older players but often hav better respect for others

[ADZ1]

looking back on what i have said i do not completely agree with hitting shuttle at feet or the rudeness etc, i was only winding up phil.

The only time i would actually do that to someone would be if the opposition disrespected me first, like blatently cheat with line calls or scores, it may not be the right way but thats how i do and that is an example that people will act differently on court as most people would not agree with me.

Phil...dont be silly i couldnt care less what people said about you, because i would knock you flying anyway trust me (this lad has been through enough) its alright for you to hide behind the internet, so leave it out

[Phil McBride]

Eddy - I've just managed to scrape past my leaders but it was close for a while, nearly lost it.

And Irrespective of what coaching abilities people have manners come down to plain common sense. Which I think most people posting on this thread are more that aware of!

James and Nobody raise interesting points about the "generation gap" in county level playing, I have noticed this not only in County level but many clubs have older players who are just plain ignorant of the younger players and do not give them the time of day, I've even seen cases where after being beaten by the youngsters comprehensivly they are told not to come back to the club because it's "not what they are looking for" or "they are not good enough".

Come on grow up, this is why no one can get any club play anymore because of the cliquey attitude. But in saying that it is rife in many clubs not just isolated incidents

Me -

"looking back on what i have said i do not completely agree with hitting shuttle at feet or the rudeness etc, i was only winding up phil."

Kinda figured that one out, and I'm not the one hiding behind the internet, my name is in full view for all to see.

Why do you think people would act differently on court? So in that case are you advocating beating someone at their own game when they divert into what I consider rudeness?

Going back to the start of the thread and looking at the two options why do you not choose the other one of just rising above it?

[eddykid]

Phil,
I suggest now reading some novels regarding how to play Badminton and anger management.
This should compliment your leaders award and make you a better person on court and with younger players.

You would then not get upset so quickly when players use the most basic tactic of winding you up.
Hitting the shuttle under the net at your feet would now not be such a problem to you and you could then rise above it and maybe win a few games.

[Phil McBride]

If indeed anyone has written a badminton novel I'll be sure to read it, badminton seems to be more of a pamphlet orientated game with respects to literature. It would be probably best if I passed my leaders award first would it not before I found something to compliment it?

[Phil McBride]

[eddykid]

Phil,
I thought that in your earlier post you said that you had just scrapped by with your leaders award.
I was just being helpful as I know what it is like when you just start out in a sport like badders.
You are not lying as well as being a bit hot tempered are you Phil.

[Phil McBride]

The leaders is a turn up and pass it kind of a thing is it not?

Does it count if I have the certificate or not?

[eddykid]

Phil,
It is the basic coaching award.
You cannot coach individuals but you can coach with a coach who has part 1.

I would advise you to start like this with a temper like yours as you will be a danger if unsupervised.

Let me know if you want any other imformation regarding this subject as if you are thinking about your coach part 1 then we have a lot of work to do with you.
Firstly if you feel angry start saying WOOO SAAAR like they did in the film Bad Boys 2.
This seemed to help so you can try this for a start.

[Vorpulus]

My behaviour on court is ok I think.

Before the game starts I put my hands together as if in prayer and bow.

When I win a point, I have a little think. Am I going to act like the point means nothing like youngsters today do? They win a point and shout 'SO?!'. At my business, we believe that every point matters and I believe this is why you, the customers, think so highly of us.

...

Anyway. I have taken my inspiration from the program Bo Selecta! Specifically Michael Jackass. When I win a point, I shout 'SHAMOAN!!!'. Sometimes I elaborate also... I won't go into that. There's something for you lot to think about though.

[Phil McBride]

I havn't seen bad boys 2 but can't I just do a loud "Wooooooooooo" like Ric Flair?

How would I progress to my coach part 1 if it is not done in Scotland? Yet more difficulty, but thanks for offering to help, have you any suggestions to get started with? So I don't miss the opertunity when it comes along.

[Vorpulus]

Where's my post gone Site Support?

[Site Support]

The post broke the forum guidelines and was removed.

[Vorpulus]

It was neither off-topic or offensive. I don't see which rules I have broken.

[eddykid]

Phil,
You can move to England where they do proper coaching badges.
That would be a start but first go down to your local leisure centre and help out there with the kids.
Kids are easy to coach because if you are crap at coaching they will not know the difference.

Also invest in a Jake the Fake badminton book where he teaches some really basic stuff and try it on the kids and write your results down.

Then you can learn from your results.
Who knows you might be able to get a decent national player up there if it works.

[Phil McBride]

I would only consider a move to England if all the shops stocked Irn-Bru and they started to accept bank of Scotland tender!

Ah, you get a badge in England. Do you sew them on your swimming trunks like your badge for the 1 length breast stroke?

Anyway, local leisure centres are quite strict about people wandering in and teaching kids, would I need any special checks done?

[eddykid]

Phil,
I think most of the scots will need checks done however well thought of.
There are many strange people out there these days.
I think today you get a card with your picture on it.
Well in England they do as they move with the times.

I think most places deal in scottish tender so you are more than welcome to come to England and take your course although you might have a heart attack at the cost of a course in England.

The leisure thing was just an idea as you sound very enthusiastic about helping others.
One word of advise to you Phil is that make sure you get your grip right.

PS The days of Braveheart are long forgotten now Phil I hope all is forgiven.

[Phil McBride]

"I think most of the scots will need checks done however well thought of.
There are many strange people out there these days.
I think today you get a card with your picture on it."

It's called a bus pass up here.

"although you might have a heart attack at the cost of a course in England."

So that's one playing and one for coaching, After I get some kind of certificate I would no doubt keel over after the cost/excitement/exercise, so I am left thinking is it worth it?

"One word of advise to you Phil is that make sure you get your grip right."

On the racket or on reality?

You've certainly upped the humour value! ;)


Just in case anyone is left wondering, if you choose to work as a coach or any other discipline involving children you will have to be checked by Disclosure Scotland (in the case of Scots) and I would assume Disclosure England although the Scottish offices do all the checks due to the current backlogs experienced at the moment.

The coaching qualifications north of the Irn-Bru availability line are:

Leaders
Instructors
Club
Advanced
Premier - Only National squad players can get this one.

Can you please list the setup in England?

Cheers Eddy

[Vorpulus]

McBride, from Scotland (surprisingly enough) says:

"I would only consider a move to England if all the shops stocked Irn-Bru and they started to accept bank of Scotland tender!

Ah, you get a badge in England. Do you sew them on your swimming trunks like your badge for the 1 length breast stroke?

Anyway, local leisure centres are quite strict about people wandering in and teaching kids, would I need any special checks done?"

The Topic for this thread is:

Court behaviour

Site Support says:

Taking the thread purposely 'off-topic' will result in the post being removed.

Current Situation:

Post still exists.

[eddykid]

Phil,
I think they have bus passes in England as well so nothing new down there.
The grip was with regards to your racket as I have seen many poor grips in Scotland.
Hence the reason why they cannot compete.

You cannot take part in the course until you have paid your money so the heart-attack would come first....

Yes I think every would be coach is checked where ever you live so watch out now Phil.
No punching people in the face for bad court behaviour otherwise you will not be able to get on the start of the ladder in Scotland for coaching.

Well atleast you know what you have to do which is good as we all need goals in life.
Leaders iit is then first for you.
God alone knows what England coaches go through now.
I will look into it and let you know but it is no good to you as you are part of the Scottish federation.
Let us know how you are going with the grip Phil.
Cheers
Eddy

[Phil McBride]

Vorpulus $

To the second incarnation of the Vorpulus, the thread has evolved has it not? Something which has clearly eluded even your greatness! No doubt due to your contribution it will be shut, seems a weird pattern does it not.

Eddy

Have you really seen many poor grips in Scotland or are you covering up for something by taking the emphasis off yourself and passing it onto others? Maybe it's your constant singular gripping technique as spotted by Michael Hill?

I am part of the Scottish federation?

The rest of it was funny but do try and sober up before you post at the weekends!

[eddykid]

Phil,
I am very sober and am being very serious about my advise to you up there in bonny Scotland.
I have the correct grip at all times whether it be backhand or forehand.

I am only giving advise to you Phil because you sound like you need it.

I can remember when I first started playing and the ups and downs of the game.
I remember when I was battling with my grip and my behaviour just like yourself.
Those were the days when I felt that I could not control my temper just like you but I over come those barriers.

I have to admit I got over them when I was around 11 but I suppose there are some late starters out there.
You sound like a very frustrated man with the wrong grip on things.
Try to think of a calm moment next time you are on court and your opponent angers you.

It works for me as I think of trees and the sea.
Let us know how you get on Phil.
Eddy

[Phil McBride]

Ah good it's always better to get advice from people who have been there before.

It's good to hear you overcame your difficulties but sometimes it's not easy for us older folks to take a moment on court because things get us down all the time especially when we are late starters.

I have always liked the sea so I shall endevour to think of dolphins swimming to give myself some porpoise!

[Vorpulus]

>>
Vorpulus $

To the second incarnation of the Vorpulus, the thread has evolved has it not? Something which has clearly eluded even your greatness! No doubt due to your contribution it will be shut, seems a weird pattern does it not.
>>

As far as I'm concerned, McBride, there is nothing in the guidelines that permits evolution. When I am on a thread called 'Court behaviour', I expect to read posts about court behaviour, not court behaviour and then McBride's interest in becoming a coach. Wait a second, let me try and establish a link for you McBride. Court behaviour and then McBride's interest in becoming a coach... Perhaps you want to be a coach in court behaviour? Have you got a soothing voice McBride? You could play whale music and get people to lie on the floor and think about the good times.

To be honest I'm not even sure what you were talking about. You make little or no sense at the best of times to me. Perhaps I make no sense to you also McBride.

[eddykid]

Phil,
I hope that Vorpulus was not a player that you have coached Phil as I think you have upset him.
If you like the sea then think about the sea when feeling the pressure.

This is now a starting point to curb that temper.

You have clearly started late but don't let that get to you.
My next idea for you is to start watching the better players down your local club.
Let them know who you are and try and get some tips off them.
Study how they handle the pressure as well as their grips.
By the way how is the grip going Phil?

If you have any children of your own I suggest that you let them go to a trained coach who knows what they are doing.
There is nothing worse than a father teaching his kids things when he is just a beginner.
Give them the chance you never had a Phil thats what Eddy says.

whilst learning from the better players you can give that information to your kids and see what they think of it.
Try this at your next club night Phil and let us know how things go.
Eddy

[Phil McBride]

Vorpulus - your words make sense just not in the order you use them.

Eddy - thanks, I'll try

[eddykid]

I think that my words of wisdom have helped the temper of Phil.
He seems to be much more calm these days.
The days of him punching someone in the face are over I think.
Hope his grip is still correct?

[Phil McBride]

It's getting there Eddy!

[eddykid]

Hows the temper and grip Phil?